This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Here's where I'm going to push back, by referencing Chris Arnade's book Dignity: Seeking Respect in Back Row America. (Short review here.) He uses the metaphor of "front row" America versus "back row" America, referencing students in the front and back row of the classroom — the former are the smart, conscientious, rule-abiding, attentive people who do well in modern schooling; while the latter are the opposite. Arnade notes (as does Murray, and also Freddie deBoer) that in our current society, success heavily correlates with being "front row." Further, much like Murray, he notes that the divergence between the two continues to grow, to the point that the two groups increasingly cannot even understand each other, and have become increasingly intolerant of each other (see our politics). He also notes, and objects to, the fact that pretty much every proposal to try to 'help' the more "back row" Americans consists of projects attempting to turn them into "front row" Americans.
Arnade's point is that we can't actually do this. Some people just aren't suited for modern education, and no amount of "fostering values around education and its importance" is going to make them any more educable or less incompatible with the "front row" lifestyle. Unlike (what I've read of) deBoer, though, he argues that welfare state redistribution is not the solution, because while it's good at addressing the material inequalities between "front row" and "back row," even more than money, "back row" Americans need an existence that is dignified, that provides respect, and welfare state handouts are counterproductive to that end. Foster "values around education" all you want, you still need to find a way to integrate and provide a living for all those who simply aren't suited for college (or, for that matter, high school).
But you cannot simply redistribute "respect" like you can money, and Arnade's book is his lack of solutions to the problems he raises:
As for other people online — pretty much all "front row" — who I've seen propose various solutions, it's generally not optimistic. Plenty hold that "front row" traits are so intrinsically essential to the current post-industrial economy, and our society heavily g-loaded by necessity, that there's simply no way for "back row" Americans to contribute — that what jobs they still have will be replaced by automation (or cheaper illegal immigrants) any day now. The more optimistic of these are the ones bullish about genetic modification technologies — whether CRISPR-style splicing, or just PGS IVF —becoming cheap and commonplace in the next decade or two, so that if we can just keep things together for that long, our society will be able to afford to engineer the genes of "back row" America's children to become good, productive "front row" Americans (and then just wait a generation or two for the remaining "back row" folks to die off). The more pessimistic look to cheap VR (and improving VR porn), cheap psychiatric drugs, police surveillance and drones, and a welfare state to keep the economically-superfluous "back row" Americans pacified and warehoused (and reproducing less), for however many generations needed until they all die out.
Some propose providing "dignity" by replacing direct welfare payments with make-work schemes. But the only idea they have to keep them from being too transparently so is basically to revive FDR-style massive government infrastructure projects. But this runs up against all the problems that beset trying to build infrastructure in America, and would almost certainly end up ruinously costly.
The only other solution I see bandied about is essentially religious revival — we are all equal in dignity as beings made in God's image; the successful need to count their blessings, recognize we are all sinners, and stop looking down on those who have not received the same good fortune as them; while "back row" americans need to "come to Jesus" and stop letting their poor material conditions provide excuses for wallowing in sin. Not terribly plausible, I'd say.
Still, we do need something besides "just stay in school, just study harder, just sit still in class, just read more, just…"
Hmm. Honestly this is a very good argument i will pick up the book when i get the chance.
More options
Context Copy link
I like this front row vs back row metaphor. It matches my experience much better. And school is a great place where most people have seen all types of people. I don't think the situation is hopeless for the back row, and I think there is actually a straight forward and easy solution to making their lives better through government:
Stop having the government do so much shit in people's private lives.
Imagine you have backrow students in an actual school. They are not paying attention. They are not getting worksheets done. The principle comes up with a solution: we will offer tutors to all the students who need additional help. Everyone claps and they go about their day. The vice principle is stick having to implement this policy. He comes up with the idea of just creating a worksheet questionnaire for students to fill out if they need help.
This is the same kind of problem with so many government solutions. "Oh you can't handle the bureaucracy and regimented life of white collar work and corporate America? We will help you out, all you need to do is navigate a white collar bureaucracy that makes corporate America look streamlined."
The normal methods of government can only make this problem worse, not better. The actual solutions are out there, and have been out there. Private charity orgs and mutual aid societies used to handle some of the people falling through the cracks. Apprenticeships where people learn by doing were far more common than schooling. Churches provided help to people.
And this is ultimately a market problem, that I think silicon valley companies have begun solving (when they are allowed to). How do you take some of these people and make them productive? The gig economy is much derided, but its basically been the main lifeline for so many of these people. Rideshare, food delivery, etc. It is pretty friction-less to signup to be a part of these services, they make it as easy as they can. And then you choose when to do them, presumably when you want some more cash. Buying and selling on various online marketplaces is another way I've seen various "back-row" students make money. Running a small business is the other way these people become successful. So the more barriers in the way of small businesses, the harder you make their lives.
Yes, this is a point Arnade makes in the book as well. (I've had personal experience with, dealing with Social Security, welfare offices, Medicaid, etc, and I find it hard enough as a high-IQ "front row" type myself.) My mother works for our public library, in the branch in the poorest part of town. They get plenty of people coming in to use the computers to get online (because they lack internet access at home), and some portion of those people are doing so to seek various forms of governmental assistance. The library stafd are aware of this because said people often end up coming to them for help with trying to navigate the various application processes, and such (help which the librarians are unable to provide).
Unfortunately — and here's where I once again turn back to Weber — it is in the basic nature of modernity to replace organic, human-run institutions like these with bureaucratized ones. And, as you note, the reach of such private organizations is rather less than uniform. Much of the resistance comes from the sorts who rate "equality" high in their priority of values, and who decry the "unfairness" involved. If the primary source of help for, say, the disabled are the local churches, then what about disabled non-Christians? Disabled atheists?
Plus, local charity requires local people able to afford to be charitable. I've been thinking about Alaska's economy quite often, and why it's so terrible. The job market is lousy because few are hiring, because few can afford to hire people, because there's not enough business, because few can afford the goods and services the business provides, because too many are poor and lacking jobs…
"Rideshare, food delivery, etc." all require enough of a customer base able to afford them. It's hard to compete in "online marketplaces" when the shipping costs are higher (as are the raw materials for whatever good you're producing, for the same reason). Plus, you're competing with illegal immigrant labor, or with overseas sweatshops and the like.
I remember asking a question here in one of the Sunday threads about the economic viability of Auron MacIntyre's 'have your state resist federal control (or your county refuse federal and state control) on culture-war issues by refusing federal funds and using local institutions in their place — tell your people "you don't need the welfare state, the churches will provide."' And I recall that most concluded it's simply not economically viable for any but the richest locales (all of which are pretty much on the same side as the federal institutions in the culture war), and especially non-viable for "rust belt" areas (or other, similarly-impoverished areas like Alaska).
I mean, I agree with your sentiments here, I'm just not sure we can make it actually work as things are now.
More options
Context Copy link
This is a really good point, though i dont agree with it entirely. I cant deny my advantages in my life: my parents are well offish and pay for much of my expenses, they instilled enough work ethic in me and pushed me to go to school. However I also took advantage of the opportunities around me. I choose to go to a cheaper community college to get my degree as opposed to a larger university. I can say scholarships helped me as much as the pell grant did. I got my start in it doing an internship for a small local computer shop, those guys were awesome and were more than willing to help me. I dont think i would have my current job without them. There are certainly things local or market forces can do to help with many of these things. I took advantage of them and i am quite thankful for it, however i think the more nuanced perspective is to insert government where it may be critical (ie the Pell grant) rather than eschew government intervention in our lives entirely.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link