This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Meaningful discourse is harmed by people who dismiss arguments by aesthetics and "optics" (read: social bias) rather than dialogue about truth/falsehood. The question of which/if groups are being victimized by institutions is one with an objective answer.
This post can be rounded down to "those people look low status, and you don't want to be low status, do you"? I find the claims of woke identarians to oppression of blacks and women spurious based on reasons X, Y, Z. On the other hand, the claim of the "woke right" that white men are under systemic attack has no solid answer, so is merely met with a bare sneer.
The solution of the "woke right" is to create parallel institutions and organize, organize, organize. See: Scyldings, OGC, Basket Weaving, Exit Group. It's hardly a counsel towards parasitism or learned helplessness.
At current at least, the identitarianist view is true. People of various racial, religious, and social groups do band together, and it’s only the Americaner whites who are being told that for them to do likewise is racist Or bigotry or whatever sneer you can insert. Likewise, any move of Christianity to have any say over the morals of the country is met with cries of Christian Nationalism, often for doing similar things to what Islam is doing. I as a Christian am shamed for public prayers, Muslims get to block roads all over Europe at prayer time, or in Deerborn, have their call to prayer broadcast loudly so everyone can hear it. Muslims can tell us not to violate Sharia around them, invade the German Christmas Market, etc. Christians are not allowed to do that, and in fact are often told by the state that their religious beliefs take a distant second place to secular rules. Make that gay wedding cake, sell that abortive agent, be invisible. Whites similarly are told to sit down and shut up while their opportunities are taken away, their culture is called bigoted, etc.
I can tell you that the identity politics view works, because nothing gets the ire of the elites like the prospect of whites and Christians banding together to stand their ground. I’ve never seen anyone beyond a few cranks who want to reimpose segregated society, or impose a state church. What they want is essentially the same seat at the table that everyone else has. That’s mostly what I want. Not to be the only group that matters, but to have my concerns matter.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link