This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
You cannot save money with this information. The higher number may be cheaper. Your insurance company cannot save money with this information (for you). I don't know how many times I can tell you this. This number doesn't mean what you think it means.
Don't care what you think about the relevance of the number. That is not your job. I care about the number. It is not even for the reason you think it is. In fact, you did not even respond to the stated reason I gave. You made some other irrelevant claim. Give me the information. Stop being morally evil.
"It informs me as to the likely costs of various options, allowing me to proceed in deliberation and/or discussion about priorities and tradeoffs. This is straightforward stuff."
It does not allow you to do any of this. Explain the mechanism in which it allows you to do this.
I get the numbers. I consider the factors relevant to them. I consider the options in context of a variety of concerns relevant to my situation. Perhaps, I proceed with discussion and/or deliberation. I consider priorities and tradeoffs that likely apply. Then, I make decisions (perhaps a sequence of decisions). Are we going to have to go through Decision Theory 101? Are you next going to ask, "What is the nature of a decision?"
EDIT: Read the NYT snippet again if you are having difficulty.
The number you are asking for has nothing to do with you. If it impacts your decision you are looking at the surface of the moon to decide what sandwich to buy. It doesn't make sense.
When you go to the mechanic do you have the right to barge into the manager's office and ask him what his bonus was last year? That has nothing to do with your oil change. And you certainly shouldn't call the manager evil for not telling you about his bonus.
I am not asking about your bonus. I am asking for the charge that you will be submitting to my insurance and the negotiated rate. You know this. You have been told this over and over again. At this point, you can no longer be considered to be arguing in good faith.
You are asking for a number that has no impact on you. It does not impact how much you pay. It does not impact how much society pays. It does not impact how much your insurance pays. It does indicate quality of a given procedure.
As with the bonus it is unrelated to the issue at hand, since it does not impact you clinically or financially.
"Because" is not a reason to make things more complicated and more expensive, especially if it is at best irrelevant and at worst confuses people into make decisions using irrelevant information.
You have not indicated any value behind what you are asking for despite me repeatedly asking.
I think you need to admit that what you are asking for is for idle curiosity or provide a reason. Informed consent is not a reason because the information does not inform any consent!
Given that you are using bad-faith argumentation, the likes of which I would have to dig deep into the archives to recall, I'm not going to continue without a showing of good faith. Acknowledge, using the words, which numbers I am asking for, and state that you will no longer claim that I am asking for different numbers.
You argument is that its worth putting the effort into delivering some numbers to you (which numbers don't matter!) because none of those numbers have any impact on you. You claim they do, but when I say "what impact" you don't provide an impact.
Let's try: "because I want to choose the cheaper option." Not necessarily unwise, but those numbers don't help you do that.
What else?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link