This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
It has no relevance to you, I can only tell you that so many times.
It has relevance to me. I'm telling you that it has relevance to me, and I can only tell you that so many times. (Vastly more so if I had access to the information at the appropriate time.) You cannot hear me, because you are lying to yourself and to me. You do not get to determine what has relevance to me. That is not your job. You are not god. You are not Stalin. You are not the sole arbiter of what information has relevance to others. Especially when you have an insane conflict of interest. (EDIT: Remember the snippet of the NYT op-ed; you can just be wrong sometimes about what has relevance to others. Fundamentally, you are not them; you do not know their situation or what is of interest/relevance/value to them, the same as how auto mechanics, no matter how artistic, no matter how well-educated, no matter how perfectly they know their craft compared to their customers, do not know the situation of or what is of interest/relevance/value to their customers, so they likewise do not get to unilaterally determine that things like price information are not relevant to them.)
I am usually very mistake-theory. Smart, good-natured people can simply be mistaken about things. They could just not have been challenged ever or just not thought things through. At this point, though, when it's clear that all of your other excuses were total trash and you're resting on pure assumption of power to determine for yourself what has relevance to others, even when they're disagreeing, I start feeling left with few other options. I start feeling that either you managed to hide being surprisingly low IQ long enough to get a medical degree and you honestly struggle to understand... or you're basically just morally evil, on par with the communists, who took power upon themselves to decide what was of relevance/value to others to a similarly insane degree.
(Further Edit: It would be insane if this was your job. I really don't think you want to adopt a rule that actually makes it your job to truly understand every patient's situation/interests/values/relevance and have standards by which you are required to determine whether pricing information is relevant to them and their particular situation. It is much much easier for you to just tell them and let them think for themselves, and decide whether or not to consent to the costs/benefits. Would you really support a conceptual schema that said that auto mechanics didn't give you a price; they were instead required by some fiduciary duty to try to understand everything about you personal situation, financial and otherwise, what your interests are, what your values are, etc., and make some determination (probably according to some objective standards, probably subject to lawsuits if they're wrong in their assessment) as to whether or not they think certain pricing information is "relevant" to you?! You want to reduce administrative grief; you do not want that. Forget CoI issues; you don't want that on your own terms. It would be a nightmare compared to just giving people the price.)
Further Further Edit: To the extent that you think you are doing something like this as part of your job, I am telling you that your profession is failing. I can only tell you so many times that I have personally experienced times where having even EOB-type information at the time of decision could have mattered. You have failed. This failure is probably part of why there is so much outrage, so much clamoring for additional regulation and such.
What relevance?
It informs me as to the likely costs of various options, allowing me to proceed in deliberation and/or discussion about priorities and tradeoffs. This is straightforward stuff.
You cannot save money with this information. The higher number may be cheaper. Your insurance company cannot save money with this information (for you). I don't know how many times I can tell you this. This number doesn't mean what you think it means.
Don't care what you think about the relevance of the number. That is not your job. I care about the number. It is not even for the reason you think it is. In fact, you did not even respond to the stated reason I gave. You made some other irrelevant claim. Give me the information. Stop being morally evil.
"It informs me as to the likely costs of various options, allowing me to proceed in deliberation and/or discussion about priorities and tradeoffs. This is straightforward stuff."
It does not allow you to do any of this. Explain the mechanism in which it allows you to do this.
I get the numbers. I consider the factors relevant to them. I consider the options in context of a variety of concerns relevant to my situation. Perhaps, I proceed with discussion and/or deliberation. I consider priorities and tradeoffs that likely apply. Then, I make decisions (perhaps a sequence of decisions). Are we going to have to go through Decision Theory 101? Are you next going to ask, "What is the nature of a decision?"
EDIT: Read the NYT snippet again if you are having difficulty.
The number you are asking for has nothing to do with you. If it impacts your decision you are looking at the surface of the moon to decide what sandwich to buy. It doesn't make sense.
When you go to the mechanic do you have the right to barge into the manager's office and ask him what his bonus was last year? That has nothing to do with your oil change. And you certainly shouldn't call the manager evil for not telling you about his bonus.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link