site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 2, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

4
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Like, what the fuck bro, your main setting literally is about multiyear winters, fucking spend more than 10 lines talking about agriculture

As much as I enjoyed the first couple books and most of the short stories this has always been my biggest beef with ASOIAF. A multi-year long winter is a potentially civilization-ending event for a preindustrial society, made even worse given they occur at irregular intervals (limiting the ability to plan for it). This ought to have massive downstream effects on social organization, economics, military planing, and (ironically given Martin's complaints about Tolkien) Taxation, yet we don't see this. The Westeros we are presented with is basically just an ersatz renaissance Italy with dragons and ice liches.

Finally I've always found Martin's critique of Tolkien (he says that Aragorn was a good and virtuous king, but what about his tax policy?) to be somewhat facile. If Aragorn was virtuous i think it is reasonable to presume that his tax policy was at least moderately fair, and if he was a good king, i think its reasonable to presume that it was competently administered. What more do we need to know? LotR is a fantasy novel, not a economics treatise.

Martin may as well be hating on a fairy-tale for ending with "and they lived happily ever after", because no matter how happy Snow White and Prince Charming are together they will eventually grow old, suffer from back pain, and die. Like, what the fuck bro, that's not the point of the story, nor does it change anything.