This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I wasn’t intending to make a personal comment, I hope it didn’t come off that way. I have a deep contempt and loathing for the Powers That Be in our current age, and it shows.
I do seriously think people who should know better are subscribing to this belief, however.
In all sincerity, I appreciate the sentiment.
For a given value of ‘acknowledge’. If my colleague is promoted over me and I dedicate myself to getting them fired, I don’t think that counts as genuine ‘acknowledgement’ of the situation. It is merely a recognition that the cost-benefit ratio of publicly disputing it is bad.
I do not think the EU ever had any intention of acknowledging these elections as genuinely legitimate, it merely thought it could do to Orban what it did to the Greek radicals previously, and failed.
My model of European establishment behaviour is that its increasingly open authoritarianism has less to do with fear of Russia, which I don’t think is a genuine concern outside Eastern Europe, and more to do with the escalating failure of institutional soft power to squash emergent challengers. Even in Romania (unlike Poland, say), I don’t think that these judges are operating out of terror of a Putin invasion but out of hatred and contempt for their rivals, and a desire to show that Romania is no longer That Sort Of Country.
I appreciate the clarification (and would have not assumed worse than a hasty generalization), and can concur with your thought.
I think there is an opposite end of the spectrum, people who dismiss real threats because they don't take them seriously enough, but that's a separate thing and also not intended to characterize you or your view.
You are welcome, then, and I hope you have a good day.
I don't categorically disagree with your model in and of itself, but would point out that EU institutional soft power has been a target of Russia for well over a decade.
People forget it now due to the time-distance and the propaganda at the time, but even Ukraine wasn't about the Americans and NATO as much as the EU. Euromaidan initiated over the EU association agreement, not NATO, and the pre-Ukraine invasion demands weren't simply at the expense of NATO, but at the expense of EU institutions (including revaunchist claims that would target non-NATO EU members). I made a post a few years ago noting how the early Russia-Ukraine conflict was in some respects a Russia-German conflict, as Germany was a major driver in eastern European expansion of the EU and Germany pursued an international-media-influence strategy that set the groundwork for a lot of the pro-EU movements in eastern europe like Euromaidan. Russia's influence efforts follow a generally consistent divide model, and while the highest priority is the most obvious (Americans from Europeans), the EU itself is a not-at-all rare secondary (nations from the EU).
So if you wanted to say that the EU is more to blame for its failures than Russia, I'd be inclined to agree, but Russia is trying to make it fail, and for reasons that make otherwise acceptable things more problematic. It's fine, for example, if you can't find what you lost in your own house because you are disorganized, but it's another if you know there's a would-be-thief who is trying to steal.
If there's one part of your model I'd raise as questionable, it's Germany. Specifically where I suspect your model would run into issues on the categorical divide of what is / is not considered 'Eastern Europe.'
Merkel's dominance of German politics for a decade and a half created an impression of a German consensus that wasn't really so, particularly since it was sold on assumptions of Russian behavior (Russia is a reliable economic partner, Russia would never try to blackmail us) that were publicly demonstrated in the lead-up to the Ukraine War, where Russia deliberately caused gas shortages in Germany, publicly boasted about the expectations of freezing Germans, and generally attempted economic blackmail that, while resisted, has led to the major macroeconomic consequences to the Germans both as a matter of adapting (the considerable cost of gas-import infrastructure) but the second-order effects of rebalancing (significant sectors of the German economy no longer being cost-competitive without Russian gas that was kept as cheap as it was to build such dependencies).
While there is a lot of viewpoint diversity in a country of nearly 85 million people, the Ukraine War brought a significant and justified fear of Russian intent and interests to the German viewpoint. It wasn't just that the Eastern Europeans got to say 'I told you so,' it was that the Russians deliberately took a swing at the national economic foundation of the German society, demonstrated Germany's inability to functionally defend itself or others, and did so with an invasion that is figuratively next door. (It is only about a 16 hour drive from Berlin to Kyiv.) This is not just a strategic shock, but even a culture-shock.
Not only does this matter in the sense of Germany itself as the divider between East and West Europe, but Germany's institutional influence on the EU means that whatever Germany cares about, the EU will be more concerned about. Especially if France is also concerned... but here we get to the point that while France was not the leader of pro-Ukrainian support by any means, pro-French states in Africa were where Russia was able to make its most demonstrative retaliatory gains, meaning that the German-French motor of the EU was even more in alignment of Russia, creating its own feedback loops.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link