site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 25, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I think that's part of it, to some it sounds like the, Ehrenkreuz der Deutschen Mutter, something Nazi's would do.

Is there a form it could take that would be not weird?

If the award was a free 7 or 8 passenger SUV that let you buy untaxed fuel and park in handicapped parking spots or a license to buy gold from the gold window at 1971 prices.

If it had real tangible benefits to the recipient is it less weird?

It would be less weird, but much, much more expensive.

I'm not sure what the government could do at this point to get me to have another child. Maybe a year of maternity leave at my full salary and a vehicular upgrade. I absolutely did not like going back to work with a month old newborn, and having to hand deliver a check to pay back their side of my insurance for that time.

There are countries with significantly more maternity leave and public health care, still with low fertility.

Could you be tempted to have four or more children if the government canceled / retired your student loans / and or mortgage debt? No income tax for the rest of your life? The elderly giving up their seats for you on public transit, boy scouts, police and other public servents saluting you? You get the veterans and first responders discount at Lowe's?

canceled / retired your student loans

I did not take out loans. They have so far offered $0 payments to my husband for having children in his household. We will be in bad shape if they rescind that, but it's not like we can take the kids back.

mortgage debt

Maybe! But that sounds like the sort of thing that wouldn't be long term sustainable, due to the market adjusting.

No income tax for the rest of your life?

I'm pretty sure I'm net negative in this respect already. And to the extent that in the future I make more money while having less children at home, this will not be good for them. If they're going to subsidize me later, it should be directly, not through the government.

The elderly giving up their seats for you on public transit

That sounds embarrassing and awful. But, also, my area doesn't have functional public transport.

boy scouts, police and other public servents saluting you?

Ugh, no, that sounds like a negative thing

You get the veterans and first responders discount at Lowe's?

Meh. I don't consider things to be on sale until they're at least 30% off, but also I don't think we've bought anything from Lowe's in years, and don't have any plans to do that. I bought a bag once with a Peace Corps discount of 40% off or something. Best bag I've ever bought, I still use it every day. Apparently there are already teacher discounts that I don't bother using.

I was trying to imagine modern and US centric versions of the benefits of the Cross of Honour of the German Mother (Ehrenkreuz der Deutschen Mutter) Wikipedia describes them as

...they were always given the best of everything: housing, food, clothing, and schooling for their children. Old people even had to give up their seats on the bus or streetcar. They were treated like royalty with the greatest respect. No standing in line for them. At the butcher's shop, the best cuts of meat would go into their baskets. A helper or nurse was assigned by the government to help them take care of the brood and arrived first thing in the morning.

Members of the Hitler Youth organization were also instructed; a wearer of the Mother's Cross was to be honourably greeted (saluted) when encountered.

...the holder of the Mother's Cross of Honour will in future enjoy all types of privileges that we by nature have accustomed to our nation's honoured comrades and our injured war veterans.

It should be noted that many of the women to receive this award were already 60+.

I like the idea of debt retirement, if my wife had accrued 250k in debt through medical school and post graduate study, we'd have fewer children. But as we don't see countries with 'free' education producing higher fertility I suspect it's a minor factor.

I think Russia is actively working on something like that, so maybe we’ll get another chance to see how it works out.

Hungary has been working on this for a while now.

The vibe I get via western reporting seems to have gone from this won't work, to this works but is expensive.

I mean, lots of people would take a free car and $.40 off per gallon no matter how weird it is.