This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
As someone who was in high school during the height of the nu-metal era, I feel I may have some insight into this. I should preface my thoughts by saying that my friends and I mostly listened to classic rock, what was then described as "adult alternative" (i.e. the mellower indie rock they play on NPR affiliates). I was also in the throes of addiction at this time, where I would spent what little money I made cashiering at the local grocery store on CD boxed sets with titles like "John Coltrane: The Complete Prestige Sessions 1956–1958" that contain 16 discs and cost over 200 dollars. So I wasn't much for nu-metal.
Anyway, I had written a long piece about the musical culture war circa 1999, but deleted it, after I realized that such a lengthy exposition would only set oneself up for disappointment, as Woodstock '99 played very little role in it. Dr. Laura had been warning listeners that their kids would become mentally ill if they let them listen to Eminem, but by far the biggest concern was Marilyn Manson. He'd been vilified by the religious right since he became popular and had recently been implicated in the Columbine shootings. In an era where concerns about what music your kids are listening to was much greater than it is now, nu-metal was never really in the crosshairs.
The disaster of Woodstock '99 was big news, and Limp Bizkit's set was certainly part of that. But it was only part of a larger whole. There was also the intense heat and inadequate shade, poor sanitation, contaminated water, price gouging, lack of security, vandalism, assault, arson, rampant drug use, and sexual misconduct. All had been going on well before Limp Bizkit took the stage, but while other performers either ignored the mayhem or actively discouraged it, Fred Durst actively tried to fire the crowd up further. When later asked to account for his actions, Durst disclaimed responsibility and pretended he had no idea that anything was wrong. This was a ridiculous assertion; anyone watching the videos could tell that this wasn't a normal concert, and he'd repeatedly ignored event staff who told him to calm things down or at least shut up. Limp Bizkit's set was the climax of the story, but it wasn't the whole story.
Nu-metal itself took none of the blame, and it didn't suffer commercially. It would be another 2 years before the genre even peaked in popularity and went into decline. Class played no part in it; all these bands were mainstream. I have no recollection of anyone disparaging nu-metal as a gene. I don't remember Pitchfork ever crapping on nu-metal in particular. It wasn't something they ordinarily reviewed, and most of their derision was reserved for what they perceived as faux authenticity. Limp Bizkit is certainly hated, though it doesn't seem like their behavior at Woodstock '99 plays into this much. The backlash stems more from the fact that Fred Durst quickly became a caricature of himself, and that their music seemed unserious, deliberately aiming at an audience of 14-year-old boys whose only requirement was that the music be heavy enough to irritate their parents and have plenty of swearing.
That being said, this derision doesn't extend to nu-metal as a whole. Bands like Godsmack and Papa Roach are mostly just forgotten about. Most people's tastes mellow as they get older, and the true metalheads aren't going to fetishize something so mainstream, so there's little reason to revisit nu-metal other than for nostalgia purposes. Mainstream hard rock in general tends to go through phases where seminal bands are eventually replaced by derivative ones, before a new generation restarts the cycle. So the 70s had Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Thin Lizzy, etc. but by the end of the decade it was Styx and Foreigner. The new generation in the 80s was Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, and Van Halen, but by decade's end it was all the generic hair metal bands. Then grunge totally wiped them off the map in the '90s, but by the early 2000s you had Linkin Park and Incubus, bands that were obviously milking grunge for whatever it had left. Nu-metal wasn't exactly part of this, but it was too mainstream to have the credibility of metal, and it nonetheless became associated with the era when hard rock began to stagnate. Eventually the Strokes and the White Stripes came along and left all the nu-metal bands holding the bag. That's just how it goes sometimes. I wouldn't read too much into it on a culture war level.
Both of these bands are still active and relevant; I just purchased tickets to go see Papa Roach in concert in March.
I don’t see much continuity between grunge and what Linkin Park was doing. Like yes, Chester Bennington was influenced by Chris Cornell of Soundgarden and the two later became close friends (Cornell’s suicide is thought to have been the main factor that pushed Bennington to take his own life just two months later), but musically and thematically I think the two genres are quite far apart.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link