This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Dan Bilzerian, former playboy went on (Piers Morgan)[https://youtube.com/watch?v=KICYv4O03CA] did his anti jeiwhs bit and I could not dp anything but laugh because of how absurd it was. Him saying the things he said and Nick Fuentes acting like a diva on his stream and twitter is poisonous for anything good.
You never want to play the villain, Moldbugs insights back in 2008 still stand. Anyone sane would look at both these things and be turned off unless its thier first time seeing these people whilst also being in on the jokes. Even then, playing a caricature is a good way to repel everyone. Nick who talked about optics back in 2018 to the point where he called Richard Spencer a wignat who was bad for the "movement". Nick is ofc most likely working with the FBI as he was a key member on ground on Jan 6 where he did get people to storm the capitol, many of whom got arrested whereas his primary issues were being on a no fly list.
Similarly, Dan going out there and denying holocaust numbers does not sit well with anyone. You can criticise Jewish people or israel in a sane way. Claiming that they are responsible for everything bad is either dishonest or low iq since progressivism did mutate from Christianity. Simply pointing out how you are against the treatment of gazans and the impact israel has on public policies being linked to out and out holocaust revisionism is a terrible look. His argument about the numbers of the holocaust by the end came off more as a nutcase bitchute tier video than an earnest analysis. Jared Taylor does not get invited due to his calmness during interviews. Many on the right disagree with him, including [spandrell] (https://x.com/spandrell4/status/1854433166561554534) though his conduct is alright.
My ethnicity has little to no problems with either euros or Ashkenazis, I just find the stuff being done by both Nick and Dan as something that would make you laugh for 30 seconds and stay as a disgrace for a few decades. Playing the villain is always bad.
There's a simpler problem here: who cares what a himbo like Dan Bilzerian thinks? He got big playing Hugh Hefner without the articles. This is the guy we're going to for geopolitics or a discussion of the mechanics of cremating millions of people?
I tried to listen to it and realized that I was just tired. Israel-Palestine is tiring enough when it's someone whose opinion we're supposed to take seriously. How many people that were previously reachable by Dan Bilzerian care now that he's flirting with Islam and Holocaust denial (I think the Muslim fanbase is an underrated explanation for the derangement of certain figures)?
There's a sort of weird overlap between "manosphere" figures and antisemites like Fuentes but I don't see how anything will come of it given they don't have that much in common, any sort of stable ideological core and inevitably fly too close to the sun with some bullshit and end up getting burned a la Fresh and Fit.
I don't think there's anything weird about it. The ideas in the manosphere (men and women are different and those differences reach the level of psychology and not just anatomy) are in the same category of unmentionable/cancellable beliefs that holocaust denial and regular old racism are in. If you're someone in the manosphere who wants to talk about those ideas seriously, the only places you'll be able to actually have that conversation is in the same places that let other unmentionable beliefs be discussed. I personally think that this is actually one of the reasons behind the rise in antisemitism and racism - if a young guy wants to learn how to actually have sex with women, he's getting a full course of banned and disreputable ideas.
More options
Context Copy link
I honestly regret any time I spent knowing all of these people, they're fringe and Dan is past it now that he isn't Instagram hugh hef, still this is a bad look because people will bunch people together.
I tell people that there are fairly many ethnic groups in my nation, doesn't mean it's the same genetic distance as that of a sub saharan and a nord in terms of ancestry but there still are some differences, even if they might not be explicitly physical but the average person will only listen to the word Indian and bunch 2 billion people together.
Fuentes is a fed so his motives are muddy. The Muslim fanbase indeed is the reason lol, since you can't criticise Muslims because of bioleninism. Same happened with Islam is right about women, feminists knew the posters were offensive but couldn't word it out because they knew that would be heretic lol.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
The relationship between optics and efficacy isn’t clear for the “alt right”. Nick Fuentes’ extremist rant led him to collaborate with Adin Ross and debate Destiny; Adin Ross was mentioned by name during Trump’s victory speech, and Trump was interviewed by Ross under the influence of Barron. Andrew Tate gained influence solely due to his outrageous takes. Trump’s early outrageous remarks are what led 4chan to back him deadly in his first election.
The alt right is increasingly influential and popular; if optics are so important then how did that happen? Maybe it comes down to a “great man theory” of political persuasion, with Elon and Tucker responsible for the big cultural change, I don’t know.
His movement was technically groypers, so alt right but more religious and slightly less woke on racial issues. Whereas Spencer who coined the term or co opted (maybe both) alt right dreamt of a pan European empire with US as it's beacon.
Spencer was a relatively decently educated guy who'd do neo kazi things in a sophisticated fashion, rile up people and ultimately had to become a fed like milo due to the issues he faced. His audience was way worse than him whereas nick from the outset aimed for a young college audience that was like Richard. Both fought over this as Nick didn't like Spencer's direction but would eventually fucking say the same things.
Spencer never saw the effects of live streaming, nick has been streaming since 2018 maybe, YouTube, dlive, cozy (his own service) etc. Now I'm certain he too is a fed as he did rule up people for Jan 6th, both are suspected of being homosexual with nick being caught having Trans porn on his computer and famously having never touched a girl.
So in essence you have a fast talking 120 iq volcel who can't keep his low brow racial views down fighting with a richer, more educated 125 iq man who was not that different.
I mention this because the only guy who actually didn't act out with similar views but a higher iq is Jared Taylor, lo and behold he's still banned despite never crashing college campuses or raising nazi salutes even as a joke.
The great man theory would be represented by someone like Yarvin or his NRx buddies far more because they give a good model of the world and what's wrong. You can send a well meaning progressive an open letter to an open minded progressive and he'd not think you're off the rocker. Nick famously disses Moldbug and every other reactionary because he can't read much and thinks anyone doing well in life is a CIA op, whilst being a fed.
4chan was instrumental, I'm certain nick or Spencer or tate aren't people who fulfill the great man prophecy. You have to know what reality is, why it's the way it is and a path forward that's different from what we had bbfore and what we have now. Then acting upon that, this is a huge ordeal as then you have to convince others who represent the best of humanity around you to follow suit, not all but far more than what we have right now.
Ultimately Trump isn't this reactionary God emperor, his people are certainly not either of those things and the rot in the US or other places isn't easy to thwart. Calling women fat isn't the same as making nazi jokes.
I say this because another youtube guy tired this and failed, Sargon of Akkad, but in the flipside, nick isn't going for elections, so if he acts as a gateway to reactionary or neoreactionary people then it isn't that bad, though these optics are certainly terrible. I should writ a short history in this guy lol, too long of a comment, others may like it.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link