site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 4, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

One of my neighbors asked me if I gave my child fluoride pills now that we live on well water. I stifled a gasp and asked her to describe what she was giving her kid. Apparently her dentists said kids without city water need fluoride and this kid takes fluoride pills--like swallows them. I asked the woman if she understood how they work and she admitted she didn't know. Rather than kill the party I said it was interesting and went straight home and re-researched the topic to make sure I actually understood what I thought I understood: fluoride is a topical treatment to help re-build tooth enamel.

Not only did I remember how the stuff works and learned a bit more, but I discovered that it's insanely difficult to get good information. It's almost all propaganda that says, "fluoride prevents cavities! Trust us!" Effectively, fluoride ionizes existing chemicals in the mouth to boost enamel creation, which is a natural process. There is literally no benefit to consuming fluoride and it's clearly a dangerous chemical to ingest in large quantities. (https://journals.lww.com/jpcd/fulltext/2020/10020/how_fluoride_protects_dental_enamel_from.3.aspx)

I also learned that the guidelines for public water fluoridation had recently been dropped from 1 mg/L to 0.7 mg/L (https://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/about/community-water-fluoridation-recommendations.html) and that there is actually a problem called fluorosis that will ruin your teeth. And besides...who even drinks tap-water anymore (except us Motters) amiright? It's looking bad for water fluoridation!

The thing that blew me away was the oft repeated claim that fluoridation lowers cavities by 30%. The best I could find was that health experts in the 80's found the addition of some fluoride to the water resulted in fewer cavities across the population but I found no evidence where it discussed the actual effect per individual. It really seems like a case of bad numeracy to me, where no one bothers to ask, "30% of what? how?" and everyone just presumes they'll have 30% fewer cavities if they even think about it that hard.

I feel like the real problem here is a lack of scientific curiosity on the part of dentists who just swallow the fluoride story in large breathless gulps.

I feel like we're living in the dark ages of dentistry. There's apparently also no data to support flossing or dental x-rays.

I stopped flossing about a decade ago. Yep, still no cavities. I'm going to drop the x-rays too. Cavities seem to be mostly a function of what kind of bacteria lives in your mouth + sugar consumption. I have the good bacteria, lucky for me.

In terms of fluoride, I'm going to do some research on how people suppose that fluoride is actually supposed to prevent cavities. Is it via consuming it orally? Because, if so, it's strange that there are also a bunch of products that APPLY IT DIRECTLY TO THE TEETH. Like you, I feel like there's not a lot of good information. The comments in defense of fluoride here have definitely not reassured me.

Anecdotally, I have used a high fluoride toothpaste in the past and it reduced teeth sensitivity.

Why can't we just put it in mouthwash and toothpaste and let people make their own choices?

Edit: I spent some time talking with Claude AI about this issue and it was strangely non-cucked and helpful. Yes, it would seem that topical application of fluoride is likely to confer more benefits than drinking it, and without the potential downsides. This seems like a no-brainer. The one exception is that children may need some fluoride while teeth are forming. Nevertheless, they get it from food anyway. I might look into a way to test and filter fluoride levels.

Anecdotally, getting a water flosser device has greatly improved how my mouth and gums feel. I’ve never been a big flosser, have never had a cavity either. But that water pick thing is really nice.