site banner
PaperclipPerfector  5d ago (text post)   644 thread views

Transnational Thursday for October 24, 2024

Transnational Thursday is a thread for people to discuss international news, foreign policy or international relations history. Feel free as well to drop in with coverage of countries you’re interested in, talk about ongoing dynamics like the wars in Israel or Ukraine, or even just whatever you’re reading.

2
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

What the hell is going on in the UK?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/31295918/nuclear-submarine-food-low-sweets/

Medics feared a “serious loss of life” from fatigue and concentration lapses.

The Vanguard-class vessel had to patrol for well over six months owing to a shortage of working subs.

Plans to resupply at sea were scrapped for unknown reasons — so chiefs asked crew to hand in their sweets and chocolate, known in the Navy as “nutty”.

The usual patrol for these nuclear missile submarines is supposed to be no more than 80 days but the shocking state of the Royal Navy means that subs are going on 6 month patrols. There aren't enough subs seaworthy at any given time.

I note that it is the Sun and the UK govt has denied that the crew were starving, so it might all be massively exaggerated.

As far as I know, British nuclear missile subs still operate without permissive action links. There is nothing anyone can do (short of using a torpedo) to stop them firing their nuclear warheads at will. I think it should be a very high priority to avoid any chaos or dysfunction on these vessels. I understand why Dominic Cummings has been constantly shrieking and wailing about the UK's nuclear strategy if this is what's happening.

Probably just being exaggerated. Soldiers (and presumably sailors) love to whinge. It's their greatest pastime. I would guess the Sun has picked up on independent snippets and packaged them together and fed them to an amenable ex-navy source for the 'Horrific' quote. It wouldn't surprise me if all of the events happened on different trips and the 6 month patrol only happened once.

The minor points in the story are practically meaningless as independent issues. The big issue though is indeed having a 6 month patrol. No one signs up for that. It's telling that even this story is worried about food, but not focused on the psychological toll on the crew for being away from home for so long, while living in claustrophobic conditions with censored communications. While the 6 month patrol was likely a one off, the govt should increase funding to get the maintenance situation under control.

The Sun says they're routinely doing 6-month patrols, I haven't verified it though I guess you could check whenever submarines leave port:

Originally Royal Navy policy was for the Vanguard-class submarines to spend a maximum of 80 days at sea, for the welfare of the crew.

But the shortage of working subs has led to longer patrols.

HMS Vengeance set a record when she returned to His Majesty’s Naval Base, Clyde in March.

She had been away for six months and 18 days.

HMS Vigilant spent 195 days on patrol before that.

It's really an issue with priorities. I get the sense that funds can be quickly found for housing asylum seekers in hotels (or whatever crisis is in the newspapers this week). But Treasury penny-pinching is left to harangue the nuclear forces, precisely because they're more professional and less prone to bitching to the media.

A second source said: “It was miserable. If you weren’t on watch your movements were limited to conserve energy and encouraged to sleep to burn less calories.”

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats