site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   28212 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 14, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

3
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

But the outcome ISN'T really binary, is it?

Sure, in this trivial sense it is not.

I've heard this same argument from other Taleb-readers and got the impression that "irreducible uncertainty" means something entirely different than just a "none of the above" outcome.

If it is just that, then the same arguments apply: When you make the final probabilistic prediction, you integrate over the uncertainty, resulting in three numbers that add up to 100%. After recording the actual outcome, take the log of your predicted probability for this outcome, and that's your performance score.

Of course, if Silver rounds down the probability of "none of the above" to 0% for convenience and it still occurs, he'd technically incur a score of -Inf, which should tank his credibility forever. But I find that a boring technicality.

From your linked article:

Because FiveThirtyEight only predicts probabilities, they do not ever take an absolute stand on an outcome: No ‘skin in the game’ as Taleb would say.

Taleb is wrong here. Under this standard, no reasonable predictor could survive any real world application, as it would have to be trashed after the first mistake. And those that do survive would be hopelessly overfitted to past data.

For standard models, like logistic regression, the default decision boundary is assumed to be 50% (or 0.5 on a 0 to 1 scale) or the alternative with the highest value. [...] If FiveThirtyEight has no stated decision boundary, it can be difficult to know how good their model actually is.

The article got it precisely the wrong way round. Classical models such as logistic regression are trained and evaluated using their full probabilistic predictions.

It is only thresholded to a deterministic choice when used as input to a human decision, where the prediction is appropriately weighted for costs of false positives vs false negatives etc. (which you cannot do if it were a deterministic prediction in the first place).

And the fact that it tries to 'call' an election months out but has to adjust radically to new info is why I call it 'gimmicky.'

How's that bad? I'd call that perfectly rational behaviour.

How's that bad? I'd call that perfectly rational behaviour.

Perfectly rational behavior would probably be saying "I don't think I can accurately predict outcomes this far in advance."

So they add in the caveat "if the election were held today here is what the model says about the odds."

But the election isn't being held today. They know that, the audience also knows that but will still read the model.

Without a gimmick they have nothing to sell.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats