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naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   33222 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 10, 2022

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I believe most trans people genuinely do identify as and perceive themselves to be the gender they say they are.

That raises the question of otherkin.

Aside from that, the reason it's even vaguely plausible that they're sincere is that your allies have created an environment where sincerity may be assumed. It's with circular reasoning where people wouldn't use unusual pronouns if society didn't accept them first, but society decides whether to accept them based on the fact that people use them sincerely.

If this was 1970 and someone wanted to be called xe/xim, or even if a man wanted to be called "she", you'd know that they're trolling because it's so frowned upon that nobody would want to do that for real. Even if closeted trans people exist in 1970, they would know that society frowns upon the request so they wouldn't ask--anyone who does ask you in 1970 is probably trolling. Trans or custom gendered pronouns in 1970 are in the same position as "your lordship" is in right now.

Imagine that there was a social movement about people's right to be called "your lordship", and because of that movement, there were people who sincerely requested to be called "your lordship", so you could no longer assume that such a request is trolling. Also imagine that even then, the connotation of "your lordship" is still what it is now. If someone asked to be called "your lordship", would you do so? Or would you say "even if you're sincere, by making that request, you are trying to claim the conventional connotations of 'your lordship', and they don't apply to you, so I wouldn't call you that"?

If this was 1970 and someone wanted to be called xe/xim, or even if a man wanted to be called "she", you'd know that they're trolling because it's so frowned upon that nobody would want to do that for real.

Sure, yeah, we assume sincerity now because they made it sincere. Just as we assume sincerity about claims such as "maybe people from other countries are real people too" or "there shouldn't be an unelected king".

Also imagine that even then, the connotation of "your lordship" is still what it is now.

Are the connotations of "he" and "she" now what they were before? Anyway, sure, if we assume that society developed in a way that changed my mind about "your lordship", then my mind about "your lordship" is changed. So?..

Aside from that, the reason it's even vaguely plausible that they're sincere is that your allies have created an environment where sincerity may be assumed.

"My allies," forsooth!

You're mixing up several different things here. Some otherkin probably are sincere (which doesn't make them less deluded). I do believe most trans people are sincere, and trans people, by which I mean actual people who believed they were a different sex than the one they were born as, not just gender nonconforming people that trans activists try to retroactively label trans, certainly existed before the 70s. As for the newer genderspecials, probably they are about as sincere as otherkin, which is to say some of them are sincere and deluded and some are just adopting the cool fashionable new hairstyle and will abandon it when it's no longer cool.

The argument isn't "someone can sincerely be trans", it's "someone can sincerely demand trans pronouns". In 1970, most trans people would not demand pronouns, and any person who does demand one is probably a troll, not a trans person. This is the situation today for "your lordship"; anyone who would (in a more permissive society) want to demand it sincerely probably stays silent, so any demands you hear come from trolls.

I edited it into the previous post so you might not have seen it, but if society changed, so you couldn't assume that people who wanted to be called "your lordship" were insincere, would you call people that upon request?

In 1970, transwomen definitely tried to live as women and wanted to be referred to as "she."

I edited it into the previous post so you might not have seen it, but if society changed, so you couldn't assume that people who wanted to be called "your lordship" were insincere, would you call people that upon request?

I don't assume sincerity or insincerity. That's why pure conflict theory is lazy.

Your hypothetical is stupid, since "your lordship" would be addressing someone by a title that doesn't exist in this society and literally nobody (at least in the US) can lay claim to it. That's like asking "What if someone wants to be referred to as Mr Attack Helicopter hurr hurr hurr'."

But supposing there was some new movement of people genuinely convinced that they are noblemen born in the wrong century and social class, no, I would not call them "your lordship." Nor would I call someone who sincerely believes he's an attack helicopter Mr Attack Helicopter.

I don't assume sincerity or insincerity.

Your answer was basically "anyone who wants me to call them 'your lordship' is trolling or crazy." If they're not crazy, that assumes insincerity.

But supposing there was some new movement of people genuinely convinced that they are noblemen born in the wrong century and social class, no, I would not call them "your lordship."

Why then is your answer different for "your lordship" and for trans pronouns?

Why then is your answer different for "your lordship" and for trans pronouns?

I don't believe in nobility. I do believe in classifying people according to their gender presentation.

Your answer was basically "anyone who wants me to call them 'your lordship' is trolling or crazy." If they're not crazy, that assumes insincerity.

"I do not assume X or Y" does not mean "I do not ever under any circumstances whatsoever draw any conclusions about X or Y."

You know this.

"I do not assume X or Y" does not mean "I do not ever under any circumstances whatsoever draw any conclusions about X or Y.

If the circumstances where you draw conclusions are the vast majority of all circumstances, then you do assume them. That's what assuming means.

If the circumstances where you draw conclusions are the vast majority of all circumstances, then you do assume them. That's what assuming means.

Unfamiliarity with Bayesian reasoning is a surprising thing to see here.

"Assume" in common parlance includes Bayseian reasoning.

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