site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 9, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

For years as a younger man I considered myself allied with feminist causes. In undergrad back in the day I marched in a Take Back the Night rally, I took at least two women's studies courses in grad school (one about language and sex differences, which was interesting, though my professor marked me down I believe for a write-up of a conversation I had recorded in which I suggested the female actually seemed to have the power, another I can't even remember the name of the class but what it taught me, what I learned from taking it, was no doubt not at all what I was supposed to have learned. I learned the women in it were mostly self-entitled princesses. Yes I was the only male in the class.)

I am not remotely at the level of misogyny one at times seems displayed in these pages (I use that word to mean essentially "woman hating," not in any esoteric or typically progressive sense) but my views on the fragility and vulnerability of women and the horribleness of men have, let's say, altered.

I'm still pretty moored to how I was raised in my perspective, but how I was raised in a way conflicted with the approach of seeing women as tough-girl badasses that was dinned into me over the years of my younger self. Living in Japan, and perhaps having witnessed the situation of women in places like Thailand, I have to say many of the tropes about paygaps and women not being taken seriously and extremely limited options for women are very true, or at least much, much more true than in, say, the US, which strikes me as a demented zoo when it comes to what seem to me to be mainstream views on men and women (I am not even getting into trans).

None of this is very specific but my bus is arriving so I am ending in typical abrupt fashion.

Edit because this is infuriating word salad: My mistake was buying into the idea that Women Are Wonderful. But even with this mistake in mind I still like women, just not in the same dewy-eyed, trusting way. No. More in a stern-eyed, doubting way.