This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Your body is not healthier. You have lost some biological functioning that you had before.
Yes, there are soooo many health risks to cross-sex hormones. A FtM balds because of their testosterone. Do they take Finistrade? Finistrade is risky to women, do the same risks apply to this person?
But I don't even have to get on the weeds on this, the increased risk to cancers, blood clots, heart attacks, etc. The mechanism of transition itself purposely damages the reproductive system. It is by itself unhealthy.
Now, it may be the case that cross-sex hormones are an effective treatment for gender dysphoria, maybe the only effective treatment after a certain threshold (I much prefer treatment that would make someone's hormones more like their natal sex if they are being treated before the age of 16, and have seen evidence that this works better.)
I am not against treating trans people with cross sex hormones.
But there is a difference between getting a hormone treatment to treat your mental illness and trying to make everyone else in society believe your mental illness.
I am 100% against cosmetic surgery except where it restores functionality, like nose jobs to breathe better and skin repair for burn victims.
Well, you're consistent at least. I do think a realistic assessment of health ought to look at happiness a fair bit more, though. I was never going to reproduce for a variety of reasons, so I think it's totally reasonable to trade that off for happiness. I think people have plenty of hobbies that make them happy, despite being dangerous: they drive cars, they drink alcohol, they eat badly.
On a spiritual level... I'm not much for formal churches and whatnot, but as best as I can tell, my soul, my connection to the divine, wanted me to do this. I trust it, because when I was even younger, it held me back and said no, you're not ready to do this yet, and looking back I think it was right.
Plenty of people are spiritual, and plenty of people think it's a mental illness. I'm spiritual myself, but I still expect the people in the latter category to try and show some respect for people of faith.
Yes, happiness is a component of health. It's just not a component of the health of a reproductive system, which is what is under discussion here.
I respect Truth, and I'm sorry but this conversation has mostly cemented my belief that many trans people have a very tenuous grasp on reality and equivocate between concepts in order to justify themselves to themselves.
(I am a very spiritual person myself. I worship the Way, the Truth, and the Life.)
I'm aware of your spirituality - but I'm equally aware of mine. I believe that Jesus supports my decision, and that if he were here today he would "cure" me by making me indistinguishable from a cis woman. I'm no stranger to this being called a mental illness, either because someone doesn't agree that "Jesus" exists or because someone doesn't agree that "gender" exists. It seems like a fair equivalence myself - I'm asking you to have faith in some internal truth of mine that I can't prove to your satisfaction.
I will not.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link