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PaperclipPerfector  2mo ago (text post)   29550 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 26, 2024

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Copy-pasting from my other comment:

Menopausal women's bodies once produced large gametes, but no longer do. That is a historical fact about their bodies. Just because someone has one of their legs amputated doesn't change the historical fact that they were bipedal from birth. Just as we consider prepubescent girls female because in most cases their bodies eventually will be capable of producing large gametes, we consider menopausal women female because their bodies once did produce large gametes: the arrow of time points both forwards and backwards. Likewise for eunuchs and prepubescent boys.

So, wait, you think people who lost their legs should still be considered bipedal? Like, you think they don't need a wheelchair, and we should laugh at them when they insist they've "transitioned" to needing a wheelchair?

How in the world is this cleaving reality in a coherent way, but "people who get treated as women" and "people who experience misogynistic sexism" are somehow radical ideas?

To reiterate: "Just because someone has one of their legs amputated doesn't change the historical fact that they were bipedal from birth." They are not currently bipedal, but they once were. A menopausal women is not currently producing large gametes, but she once did.

but "people who get treated as women" and "people who experience misogynistic sexism" are somehow radical ideas?

So your definition of "woman" is "anyone who gets treated as a woman" or "anyone who experiences misogynistic sexism"? Well, I can think of a number of objections that make your definition vastly less precise and meaningful than mine.

  1. "Treated by" whom? Do you have to be "treated as a woman" by everyone you meet to be considered a member of the category "women"? Is it sufficient if just one person "treats you as a woman" for you to call yourself a woman for ever and for always? Or is it democratic: if 100% of the people you meet "treat you as a woman" you are 100% woman, if 0% of them do you are a man, if you're androgynous enough that 50% of people think you're a woman and treat you accordingly, then you're neither man nor woman?
  2. This definition implies that any trans woman who doesn't pass (and indeed any cis woman with a masculine appearance) is not a woman. Fair enough, but probably not what you intended?
  3. What does it even mean to "treat someone as a woman"? You gave the example of people addressing people as either "sir" or "ma'am". When I meet a trans woman (and it's usually obvious), I'll refer to them using their preferred name or pronouns not because I literally believe they are a woman, but in an effort to keep the peace and avoid causing needless upset (in the worst case scenario, to avoid getting "cancelled"). This is quite distinct from "treating them as a woman".
  4. What does it even mean to "treat someone as a woman"?
  5. The definition of the latter category is circular and tautological, as all definitions used by trans activists inevitably turn out to be. "A woman is a person who experiences misogynistic sexism". Well, "misogyny" means "hatred of women", so everyone who experiences misogyny is a woman by default - one literally can't be the victim of misogyny without being a woman. "A woman is a person who experiences sexism rooted in hatred of people who experience sexism rooted in hatred of people who experience..." Outstanding.

Alright, fair enough, too advanced.

Let's try a simple definition as a thought exercise: women have vaginas, men have penises, and non-binary for everyone else. What's the flaw with that?

So, wait, you think people who lost their legs should still be considered bipedal?

No, but just as the existence of such people doesn't invalidate the definition of 'human' as 'a bipedal mammal', the existence of various edge cases does not invalidate the definition of 'woman' as 'producer of large gametes'.

If someone loses their legs, you don't call them bipedal, though. So why are you calling someone who loses their gametes a "woman"?

Does it really make sense to say "well, but you USED to be able to walk, so I'm still going to call you able-bodied"?

For basically everything else, we care about what a person's current condition is: we don't draw a huge distinction between people who were born needing a wheelchair -vs- people who were in an accident. Why does reality "cleave at the joints" differently for gametes vs legs?

If someone loses their legs, you don't call them bipedal, though.

You call them 'handicapped', or something else if there's enough of them that a more specific new category would be useful -- you wouldn't call such a person a serpent, though. Are you sure this is the route you'd like to take?

My point was that we don't bother to differentiate between "born" handicapped versus "became" handicapped. They're both just handicapped/disabled/legless/need a wheelchair. The idea of "transitioning" between able-bodied and disabled is not terribly controversial. So why is it that when it comes to "female", you're suddenly against the very possibility that someone could change categories?

The idea of "transitioning" between able-bodied and disabled is not terribly controversial.

No, it's not -- but the analogous transition for cutting your dick off would be 'eunuch', not woman. I'm fine if you'd like some other category ('trans person' or something), but like I say this doesn't seem to me the road you'd like to go down.

But it's not cutting off your dick, it's turning it into a vagina. If the end state was a Ken doll, it'd be a very different conversation.

If Blofeld gets cosmetic surgery to look just like 007, that doesn't mean he is Bond.

If that surgery involved cutting off his arm, it does still put him in the category 'crippled'.

Granted, cutting off your dick and undergoing bottom surgery are meaningfully different concepts, but referring to the latter as "turning your penis into a vagina" might be putting things a bit generously. A more accurate description might be "turning your penis into a decidedly crude approximation of what a vagina looks and feels like, and which is markedly different from real natal vaginas in numerous ways - most notably in that a) it never undergoes menstruation and b) the immune system will treat it as an open wound, so it must be continually dilated for several hours every day, for the rest of the recipient's life, to prevent it from closing up".

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