site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 19, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I agree pretty much across the board with you except with C1-C2. Intent matters, and since we can't read minds all we have to judge on is the actions taken.

B1-B2 is not cancel culture because the university has plausible denial that their motivation is protecting their reputation from a smear campaign rather than shutting the speech of the grad student. That said, it's a cowardly decision, and it being taken over and over again rather than defending their employees's right to their opinions is what gives cancel culture its power, so it should still be opposed by anti-cancel culture.

B3-B5 again intent matters but we can only tell by the actions taken. Journalists are pretty transparent thankfully. It's really obvious when a journalist's writing is oriented towards encouraging people to take action to get someone fired or really genuinely informing them.

For C1, I don't think Scott's friends engaged in cancel culture because of the target of the letter. Going only by the detail in this article (I didn't read the whole drama when it happened): "Some of my friends made an open letter/petition asking them not to do this". I haven't read the whole letter, but unless it ended with an appeal to other readers to unsubscribe from the NYT if they didn't comply with their demands (it might have, though I would assume that's a relevant detail Scott would have included in this post), then they deserve the benefit of the doubt that their actions were to persuade the NYT and not threaten them.

For C2, I don't think Scott telling us about it is cancel culture. Though reading it has lowered my already low opinion of The Atlantic, I think that wasn't Scott's goal. I think he mostly wanted to show that when someone's widely stated opinion feels like a personal attack against you it's difficult to have detachment and to not go on crusade against them.

*EDIT:

Another aspect I think is important to highlight is intent to what. I would define it as intent to cause damage to someone's associations (personal or professional) for speech unrelated to those associations. For instance, a hardware store employee's political opinions are unrelated to their job, so trying to get them fired for their opinion is cancel culture. A politician's political opinions are related to their job so campaigning against them is not cancel culture. There are more complex and murky cases.

a) Trying to get fired a programmer at a games studio having expressed an opinion on a forum a year ago that they believe there should never be gay people (or straight white men) in games is cancel culture because it's not something that's related to their job.

b) Trying to get fired a WRITER/DESIGNER at a games studio having expressed an opinion on a forum a year ago that they believe there should never be gay people (or straight white men) in games is... a tough call, dependant on how much they let their personal opinion drive their professional conduct. In general I believe people should be given the benefit of the doubt, but I wouldn't begrudge people keeping an eye on someone like that.

c) Trying to get people to boycott games from a studio because they wrote a blog post on their website saying that they believe there should never be gay people (or straight white men) in games is not cancel culture.

By that aspect, Scott's friends writing to the NYT and Scott writing about The Atlantic is not cancel culture because the articles that sparked a reaction IS their job. If they had written those articles on their personal blogs, it would have been a tough call, dependant on how much they let their personal opinion drive their professional conduct. For a straight up journalist writing factual stories (if that still exists), then I would give them the benefit of the doubt, but for an opinion columnist, then the lack of distinction between their opinion and their job is pretty much the point of their job, so...