This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
That certainly is true for the PMC here, where we are constantly reminded of our inferiority by an endlessly imported class of Chinese and Indians and Malaysians, but the cultural dissonance is only moderate, with no welfare resources to be exploited by foreigners and lead to local resentments.
Guest workers here are primarily in the construction and domestic worker segments, where there was never sufficient local population that existed to service that demand. Singapores status as an entrepot colony meant that most civil construction works were conducted by Chinese and Indian (by nationality) labourers, with little local populations that were displaced economically. This continued into the modern era, where rapid industrialisation saw most labourers (Chinese and Indians stuck here after the chaos of the Civil War and Partition) in post-independence Singapore prefer to work in sheltered factories instead of outdoor construction. We had Malaysians and Taiwanese imports at first, then now it is Indians, Thais and Burmese, with Filipinos preferring to work in middle office roles. Locals certainly bemoan the presence of foreigners, but even with outsize pay for locals they still leave some jobs unfulfilled, so the companies appeal the Ministry of Manpower for more foreign worker allotments and said allotments are granted.
To extend this scenario to the west, the main example I would use is farmhands. These men were never the locals of the farm area who want to work in backbreaking outdoor work, and instead have historically been displaced itinerants seeking shelter and employment. Farm owners certainly bitch about having to rely on foreigners now, but in olden days a drifter from Oklahoma is as much a foreigner in California as a Mexican was, and doubtless similar disparaging would occur for Buffalo vs White Plains New Yorkers. Hell, even the family the next farm over with one too many hands to work their own plot might as well be barbarians as far as a homeowner is concerned.
My point is that guest workers are a historically tested solution to the problem of 'I need cheap labor but I want to kick them out when I do not want them anymore.' Some domestic populations would lose out, but compared with 'bring them in and they will also bring in their family and we give them citizenship in 20 years time' guest workers are a clear winner.
You could just have 0 immigration as well, and I think we can look to Japan and Chinas eager embrace of gynoids for a model on how that would pan out, but we are still a few years away from that. More research is going into making human form factor robots fuckable instead of workable, and what that says about humanity is for a different thread
More options
Context Copy link