If I may be permitted a tangent, I always had a problem with the idea of master/slave morality purely on historical terms - Nietzsche's archetypes of them are simply invented, largely based on stereotypes, and don't correspond to any real history. If you're determined to push the Christian-slave aspect, you have to ignore not only what Christian martyrs or ascetics thought they were doing, but also the vast numbers of other committed, deeply pious Christians doing stereotypically 'master' things. If I try to think of a person who behaved like a stereotypical 'master', the best example to spring to mind is actually Cortes, and more generally conquistadors, and those are all the products of a Christian civilisation, frequently using explicitly Christian justifications for their actions. We may question Cortes' piety, but we can't do the same for every crusader or king or warlord who seems to fit the same bill - Charlemagne seems to have been sincerely pious, after all.
But more importantly than that, the master morality model fails to accurately describe or predict even pagan Greek aristocrats. If you read Homer somewhat more attentively, you'll notice that the Mycenaean warrior class was, far from being bold amoral power-seekers disregarding any law or constraint in favour of their own desires, intensely concerned with duty, obligation, and right. Their concepts of obligation weren't necessarily ones we would find sympathetic today, but they absolutely exist, and moreover are extremely communally oriented. That's the common theme in Odysseus' voyages - he is repeatedly offered bliss or the achievement of all the world's desires (the Lotus-eaters, Calypso, etc.), and he rejects these because he is nothing outside of the ordered community, the polis, which gives his life meaning. Without the community of which he is a member he is literally nobody, to the extent that he uses that as a pseudonym in the story (and it's also why he recklessly boasts of his name to Polyphemus afterwards; he must place himself within a community, identifying himself as a man with a history, reputation, family, and so on: "Say that Odysseus, sacker of cities, Laertes' son, a native of Ithaca, maimed you!"). Likewise when he returns to Ithaca, when he conceals his name, he appears a poor beggar, because that is all he can be without the name that locates him within the community.
So even the Bronze Age Greek warlord isn't this Nietzschean stereotype. He may be violent, glory-hungry, desperate for achievement, etc., but none of these amount to being unconstrained or amoral.
I also feel obligated to note that the motivations of the Greek warrior aristocrat are actually parallelled pretty well in later Christian and chivalric literature - the readiness to use violence to defend one's personal honour, obsession with family feuds, devotion to one's family, reverence for hospitality and social obligation, and especially the urgent need to accumulate glory to one's name through public deeds. It doesn't even need to be violent (pagan emperors and Christian kings both patronised the building of monuments, in order to bring shine to their name), but in the case of literature it often is - Achilles is desperate to go to the Trojan War to win glory, and in the same way, Yvain picks fights and is desperate to go on the tournament circuit. For a noble warrior class, glory and reputation are the fundamental concerns.
Now it can be a bit more complicated than that, and both traditions but especially the Christian do problematise this desperation somewhat. The shade of Achilles appears in the Odyssey and confesses that he would rather be alive, even if a poor slave, than one of the glorious dead, in a way that seems to cast some doubt on his earlier values. Likewise for a character like Yvain, that glory-lust is presented as a character flaw, which leads to his downfall and he must redeem himself through anonymous service before finally reclaiming his name.
Anyway, this is not to say that there aren't any shifts or transformations in the way people thought about morality through the rise of Christianity, and it's true that Christianity prizes compassion and humility in a way that the ancient Greeks did not, or at least did not explicitly. But I think Nietzsche projects his master/slave distinction on to them in a way that does not accurately describe either world.
I want to stick a fork in the outlet here: famous writings such as Odysseus are probably best understood to depict not how things were, but how things were modeled, saying more about an ancient collective aspirational conception of self than as how we'd parse their society if we were alongside them.
Oh, certainly. To the extent that Homeric heroes model the values of Mycenaean elite society, they do so aspirationally. I think the overall thesis survives that, though.
I think what you are saying is mostly true; however, people like Charlemagne and Cortez exist in a Christianity that was reimagined by Germanic warrior aristocrats after the downfall of the Western Roman Empire, something you also saw earlier with Constantine, an Illyrian warrior aristocrat.
The same is true, from the other direction, with Homer, who is 'writing' about these bronze age warrior elites in a post-collapse iron age society that has largely moved away from that old model of aristocratic chariot riding warriors, into a form of warfare and social organization that is more broad based and reliant on large numbers of middle class hoplites.
I also feel obligated to note that the motivations of the Greek warrior aristocrat are actually parallelled pretty well in later Christian and chivalric literature - the readiness to use violence to defend one's personal honour, obsession with family feuds, devotion to one's family, reverence for hospitality and social obligation, and especially the urgent need to accumulate glory to one's name through public deeds.
This is again, just because Christianity was Germanized. The German warrior elites kept doing their warrior things, things inherited from their proto-Indo-European ancestors and culture they share, because of it, as well as the influence of the Indo-Iranian, chariot riding elites, that so influenced both cultures.
There isn't any mystery to why members of an Indo-European warrior caste share similar values and traditions.
I think what you are saying is mostly true; however, people like Charlemagne and Cortez exist in a Christianity that was reimagined by Germanic warrior aristocrats after the downfall of the Western Roman Empire, something you also saw earlier with Constantine, an Illyrian warrior aristocrat.
Charlemagne's ancestors specifically (and famously) converted to Catholic, Chalcedonian Christianity, not one of the sects morphed to the convenience of the Germanic conquerors. They built an enduring connection to the Roman Church and built a church (and empire) at home under the influence and with the assistance of that Church. The Franks were very much orthodox Christians by the time of Charlemagne, unlike their Arian cousins in North Africa and Spain (at least early on, in the latter case).
While a form of Christianity (hard to call it fully formed, though, tbh) did spring up in Charlemagne's time catering to German warrior aristocrats (and their peasant foot soldiers -- Saxon society was complicated, as was Saxon warfighting), it did so in the Saxon lands, aimed at converted the Saxons, not the Franks, who had been Catholic Christians for centuries and centuries by this point.
They built an enduring connection to the Roman Church and built a church (and empire) at home under the influence and with the assistance of that Church.
something you also saw earlier with Constantine, an Illyrian warrior aristocrat.
Chalcedonian Christianity is already a Christianity controlled and morphed by domineering Indo-European warrior aristocrats. The Arian Goths you so despise often fought for Rome under the command of Illyrian commanders.
Arianism wasn't something created by the Goths or Vandals, nor something adopted for any reason other than it was the first Christian faith brought to them. It isn't actually anymore barbaric than regular Christianity, I've seen that claim here a few times and it always confuses me.
My point is that after the Germans took control of the Western world they changed the church from the inside, there wasn't any sudden break in theology, just a change in emphasis.
I think you might be putting too much weight on Germanic descent or identity? As I noted, we have Western European warrior-aristocrats (partially Germanic) behaving substantially similarly to Mycenaean warrior-aristocrats (not Germanic), and if you want I'm perfectly happy to extend the comparison to Chinese or Japanese or Nahua peoples, or really anything else you like. I think there's probably a successful warrior-aristocrat package, so to speak, which recurs even across very different ethnic contexts, and it doesn't descend linearly from a single ur-warrior group so much as it's convergent evolution or natural selection. Samurai have much of the same package despite no connection to any other groups we're considering.
That said, even if you think it's distinctively PIE or Germanic, that doesn't undermine the specific observation, as you grant - that Nietzsche's historical analogies are extremely strained and implausible. Neither Christians nor Greek pagans resemble his caricatures.
I think there's probably a successful warrior-aristocrat package, so to speak, which recurs even across very different ethnic contexts, and it doesn't descend linearly from a single ur-warrior group so much as it's convergent evolution or natural selection.
It could recur without being descended from an original ur package; but, in reality, it did just occur as a package. All horses are descended from proto-Indo-Iranian horses. Horses bred to be used for war in their chariots. This spread throughout Eurasia, horses and chariots together. It could have been invented independently, but it wasn't.
The Greeks and proto-Germans traded very heavily with each other something we have very clear archaeological evidence of. They, especially the Greeks, show heavy influence from the Indo-Iranian groups on the steppe, with certain grave goods found at their sites, and certain gods they worshipped.
The warrior aristocat was a thing created of a certain time and a certain place; and, we know that time and that place. Samurai still rode those horses of Indo-Iranian provenance. They also had contact with eastern steppe people who mostly copied the culture of the Indo-Iranian steppe people.
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Notes -
If I may be permitted a tangent, I always had a problem with the idea of master/slave morality purely on historical terms - Nietzsche's archetypes of them are simply invented, largely based on stereotypes, and don't correspond to any real history. If you're determined to push the Christian-slave aspect, you have to ignore not only what Christian martyrs or ascetics thought they were doing, but also the vast numbers of other committed, deeply pious Christians doing stereotypically 'master' things. If I try to think of a person who behaved like a stereotypical 'master', the best example to spring to mind is actually Cortes, and more generally conquistadors, and those are all the products of a Christian civilisation, frequently using explicitly Christian justifications for their actions. We may question Cortes' piety, but we can't do the same for every crusader or king or warlord who seems to fit the same bill - Charlemagne seems to have been sincerely pious, after all.
But more importantly than that, the master morality model fails to accurately describe or predict even pagan Greek aristocrats. If you read Homer somewhat more attentively, you'll notice that the Mycenaean warrior class was, far from being bold amoral power-seekers disregarding any law or constraint in favour of their own desires, intensely concerned with duty, obligation, and right. Their concepts of obligation weren't necessarily ones we would find sympathetic today, but they absolutely exist, and moreover are extremely communally oriented. That's the common theme in Odysseus' voyages - he is repeatedly offered bliss or the achievement of all the world's desires (the Lotus-eaters, Calypso, etc.), and he rejects these because he is nothing outside of the ordered community, the polis, which gives his life meaning. Without the community of which he is a member he is literally nobody, to the extent that he uses that as a pseudonym in the story (and it's also why he recklessly boasts of his name to Polyphemus afterwards; he must place himself within a community, identifying himself as a man with a history, reputation, family, and so on: "Say that Odysseus, sacker of cities, Laertes' son, a native of Ithaca, maimed you!"). Likewise when he returns to Ithaca, when he conceals his name, he appears a poor beggar, because that is all he can be without the name that locates him within the community.
So even the Bronze Age Greek warlord isn't this Nietzschean stereotype. He may be violent, glory-hungry, desperate for achievement, etc., but none of these amount to being unconstrained or amoral.
I also feel obligated to note that the motivations of the Greek warrior aristocrat are actually parallelled pretty well in later Christian and chivalric literature - the readiness to use violence to defend one's personal honour, obsession with family feuds, devotion to one's family, reverence for hospitality and social obligation, and especially the urgent need to accumulate glory to one's name through public deeds. It doesn't even need to be violent (pagan emperors and Christian kings both patronised the building of monuments, in order to bring shine to their name), but in the case of literature it often is - Achilles is desperate to go to the Trojan War to win glory, and in the same way, Yvain picks fights and is desperate to go on the tournament circuit. For a noble warrior class, glory and reputation are the fundamental concerns.
Now it can be a bit more complicated than that, and both traditions but especially the Christian do problematise this desperation somewhat. The shade of Achilles appears in the Odyssey and confesses that he would rather be alive, even if a poor slave, than one of the glorious dead, in a way that seems to cast some doubt on his earlier values. Likewise for a character like Yvain, that glory-lust is presented as a character flaw, which leads to his downfall and he must redeem himself through anonymous service before finally reclaiming his name.
Anyway, this is not to say that there aren't any shifts or transformations in the way people thought about morality through the rise of Christianity, and it's true that Christianity prizes compassion and humility in a way that the ancient Greeks did not, or at least did not explicitly. But I think Nietzsche projects his master/slave distinction on to them in a way that does not accurately describe either world.
I want to stick a fork in the outlet here: famous writings such as Odysseus are probably best understood to depict not how things were, but how things were modeled, saying more about an ancient collective aspirational conception of self than as how we'd parse their society if we were alongside them.
Oh, certainly. To the extent that Homeric heroes model the values of Mycenaean elite society, they do so aspirationally. I think the overall thesis survives that, though.
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I think what you are saying is mostly true; however, people like Charlemagne and Cortez exist in a Christianity that was reimagined by Germanic warrior aristocrats after the downfall of the Western Roman Empire, something you also saw earlier with Constantine, an Illyrian warrior aristocrat.
The same is true, from the other direction, with Homer, who is 'writing' about these bronze age warrior elites in a post-collapse iron age society that has largely moved away from that old model of aristocratic chariot riding warriors, into a form of warfare and social organization that is more broad based and reliant on large numbers of middle class hoplites.
This is again, just because Christianity was Germanized. The German warrior elites kept doing their warrior things, things inherited from their proto-Indo-European ancestors and culture they share, because of it, as well as the influence of the Indo-Iranian, chariot riding elites, that so influenced both cultures.
There isn't any mystery to why members of an Indo-European warrior caste share similar values and traditions.
Charlemagne's ancestors specifically (and famously) converted to Catholic, Chalcedonian Christianity, not one of the sects morphed to the convenience of the Germanic conquerors. They built an enduring connection to the Roman Church and built a church (and empire) at home under the influence and with the assistance of that Church. The Franks were very much orthodox Christians by the time of Charlemagne, unlike their Arian cousins in North Africa and Spain (at least early on, in the latter case).
While a form of Christianity (hard to call it fully formed, though, tbh) did spring up in Charlemagne's time catering to German warrior aristocrats (and their peasant foot soldiers -- Saxon society was complicated, as was Saxon warfighting), it did so in the Saxon lands, aimed at converted the Saxons, not the Franks, who had been Catholic Christians for centuries and centuries by this point.
Chalcedonian Christianity is already a Christianity controlled and morphed by domineering Indo-European warrior aristocrats. The Arian Goths you so despise often fought for Rome under the command of Illyrian commanders.
Arianism wasn't something created by the Goths or Vandals, nor something adopted for any reason other than it was the first Christian faith brought to them. It isn't actually anymore barbaric than regular Christianity, I've seen that claim here a few times and it always confuses me.
My point is that after the Germans took control of the Western world they changed the church from the inside, there wasn't any sudden break in theology, just a change in emphasis.
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I think you might be putting too much weight on Germanic descent or identity? As I noted, we have Western European warrior-aristocrats (partially Germanic) behaving substantially similarly to Mycenaean warrior-aristocrats (not Germanic), and if you want I'm perfectly happy to extend the comparison to Chinese or Japanese or Nahua peoples, or really anything else you like. I think there's probably a successful warrior-aristocrat package, so to speak, which recurs even across very different ethnic contexts, and it doesn't descend linearly from a single ur-warrior group so much as it's convergent evolution or natural selection. Samurai have much of the same package despite no connection to any other groups we're considering.
That said, even if you think it's distinctively PIE or Germanic, that doesn't undermine the specific observation, as you grant - that Nietzsche's historical analogies are extremely strained and implausible. Neither Christians nor Greek pagans resemble his caricatures.
It could recur without being descended from an original ur package; but, in reality, it did just occur as a package. All horses are descended from proto-Indo-Iranian horses. Horses bred to be used for war in their chariots. This spread throughout Eurasia, horses and chariots together. It could have been invented independently, but it wasn't.
The Greeks and proto-Germans traded very heavily with each other something we have very clear archaeological evidence of. They, especially the Greeks, show heavy influence from the Indo-Iranian groups on the steppe, with certain grave goods found at their sites, and certain gods they worshipped.
The warrior aristocat was a thing created of a certain time and a certain place; and, we know that time and that place. Samurai still rode those horses of Indo-Iranian provenance. They also had contact with eastern steppe people who mostly copied the culture of the Indo-Iranian steppe people.
It's horses all the way down.
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