site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 29, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

9
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

It is especially not in their interest to attempt to kill them on foreign soil using neurotoxins that trace back to Russia and few other places, using known FSB members in the vicinity.

You realize that Soviet intelligence has previously killed people on foreign soil with weird poisons, right? It's basically a known MO at this point.

This harms their relationship with Europe when their geopolitical interest is to cozy up with Germany.

Russia's geopolitical interest is to bring all their European neighbors into the fold, but the best they can do is invade Ukraine and alienate said neighbors. We're not dealing with a hypercompetent foreign ministry here.

And? Everyone has people killed.

Pretty sure Americans have killed people with weird poisons too. Why do you think CIA had a 'heart attack' gun showed off during the Church Committee hearings?

I'm not disputing that Russia kills people in weird ways that include poison - I'm disputing that it makes sense in this concrete sense. Because it doesn't.

The other notorious case of Litvinenko - the guy was seen as a traitor, but one who run away and wasn't swapped. And who instead of being quiet in his exile or at least low profile published very incendiary and probably nonsensical information of the type "Putin is a pedophile" / Russia trained Al-Qaeda etc.

We're not dealing with a hypercompetent foreign ministry here.

They presented Putin with a choice:

  1. watch Ukraine smash the separatists, greatly angering Russian opposition thus making Russian internal politics worse and humiliating Russia by painting it as inactive and weak. Ukraine

  2. go to war and force Ukraine to see sense.

Why do you think CIA had a 'heart attack' gun showed off during the Church Committee hearings?

The heart attack gun was probably bullshit. It's unlikely that a small projectile like that would be ballistically stable while remaining frozen and being able to penetrate clothing.

The other notorious case of Litvinenko - the guy was seen as a traitor, but one who run away and wasn't swapped.

Well, there's a few reasons the British didn't swap him.

  1. He's a British citizen

  2. He's not imprisoned

  3. He's been dead 18 years

go to war and force Ukraine to see sense.

So far Ukraine has not seen sense. I am sure it will be great when they, best case scenario, annex the smouldering ruin that will be Ukraine after the war.

In case you missed it, I'll repeat that there is in fact a third option, which is to be a more compelling geopolitical partner than the US. However, as I said, this is beyond the ken of the Russian foreign ministry.