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naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   35893 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 3, 2022

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This is a version of ‘the incompetent boyars and the virtuous tsar’. If your culture is so easy to fix, why don’t you fix it? It’s only been 1300 years, and your societies are lagging far behind those apparently problem-ridden western ones. The mechanisms that make reform impossible in your society are apparent, resilient and formidable : religiously mandated murder of critics and apostates. Reforming the west is a piece of cake by comparison.

You didn’t answer my question about outsiders to your culture. You have been treated very kindly by your hosts by historical and world standards. Minotaur’s hostility has always been the norm, yours is unseemly .

It’s only been 1300 years, and your societies are lagging far behind those apparently problem-ridden western ones.

In the early 18th Century Mughal India overtook Imperial China to become the largest economy of the world, responsible for 25% of total worldwide production, more than the entirety of Western Europe combined.

You guys got lucky with the industrial revolution, nothing more, nothing less. Before that the "centre of the world" was at various points all over Eurasia.

religiously mandated murder of critics and apostates

Oh, absolutely, the mullahs need to be put down (metaphorically). However western cultural poison is seeping through to the youth anyways and the mullah's days are numbered, in about 50 years I expect them to not be an issue any more, however the issue is whether the cure will end up being worse than the disease (and it's a pretty terrible disease too, just goes to show you how dangerous the cure is).

You have been treated very kindly by your hosts by historical and world standards.

I am not a refugee. I agree refugees are treated extremely well these days and they should show gratitude to their hosts. However as the descendent of economic immigrants only let in because the western government needed their labour to raise tax to pay for its spending commitments the relationship between us and the west is not that of host and guest, but rather that of employer and employee. In this case while the employee promises to follow the rules set by the employer during "working hours", he has no obligation to be grateful and adopt the employers ways as his own. Both sides benefit from the transaction and that's how the western governments talk about it too, with economic migrants they don't say "we should let them in so they can live a better life" but rather say "we should let them in so they pay tax and we can use that money for ourselves", the decision to let us in was to benefit themselves, not to enrich us (no different to why an employer hires someone). Well, we'll treat you as an employer and behave like any employee: keeping our own belief systems and slacking off whenever we get the opportunity.

In a way I actually respect Japan which didn't take this bargain and are now going through a fourth lost decade, they decided to take the economic hit and as a result get to keep their culture. The west wanted to keep the good times rolling and as a result now have to deal with us and our descendants forever.

I'm not even that hostile to white culture, my disdain towards whites when they try to force their cultural values on us comes from the same place as that of an employee pissed off because his employed is trying to control what he does off the job in his free time.

In the early 18th Century Mughal India overtook Imperial China to become the largest economy of the world, responsible for 25% of total worldwide production, more than the entirety of Western Europe combined.

Sheer weight of numbers. At that time western european powers were already far ahead, capable of fighting and winning wars on multiple continents with superior technology, while the mughals sat satisfied counting their starving peasants.

Oh, absolutely, the mullahs need to be put down (metaphorically). However western cultural poison is seeping through to the youth anyways and the mullah's days are numbered, in about 50 years I expect them to not be an issue any more

I don't share your optimism. Strong men like Mustafa Kemal have tried to banish this ancient evil, but it always manages to creep back up and obscure the light of humanity.

Both sides benefit from the transaction and that's how the western governments talk about it too

I think muslims in particular make terrible ‘employees’ and if that was the extent of the relationship they should be ‘let go’(rapatriated) and replaced with less hostile ones or machines a la japan. The reason why this isn’t happening is because progressives really do want to help them live a better life and the rest believes they have a duty to be graceful hosts to those already here (imo we should assimilate them and close the border to any more substandard immigrants).

Sheer weight of numbers. At that time western european powers were already far ahead, capable of fighting and winning wars on multiple continents with superior technology, while the mughals sat satisfied counting their starving peasants.

Although I cautioned BurdensomeCount on using GDP reconstructions too liberally, I would also push back against something like this, since the technology disparity between Europe and the rest of the world wasn’t that pronounced, and states with some degree of organization outside of Europe often were able to maintain some level of parity with European arms (e.g. 16-18C was the era of gunpowder empires in the Near East and South Asia, and neither China nor Japan had issues in adopting western improvements to guns during the Ming and early Qing and the Warring States period respectively). Many of these wars (at this stage) were limited, and many were pretty embarrassing, too, like the Anglo-Mughal war.

This is not to mention things like patterns of trade; the global silver trade in this period had not Europe as its most important agent, but China. (I am to understand that the most, uh, ?industrialised? and mercantile regions of China and (maybe) South Asia, for example, were also not really that far behind in per-capita terms vis a vis e.g. Britain.)

All of this doesn’t really tell a story of Europeans pwning everyone effortlessly. Conclusive departure from the norm such that the rest of the world was unable to easily catch up probably only started sometime in the 18th century (and only really solidified in the 19th with the industrial revolution), even if per capita conditions in Europe were already favourable leading up to that, and even though many of the preexisting institutions and intellectual currents that led (?) to these changes were being built centuries before (though not with growth and industrialisation in mind).

(All I mean to say is that to presuppose obvious European dominance of the world pre-sometime-in-the-18/19C is pants-on-head historically silly, even if the conditions that would lead to their future dominance were planted early; there is also a separate argument that you are discounting advances made elsewhere in the world with the sole focus on European domination, but that is for another time.)

wasn’t that pronounced, some degree of organisation, some level of parity, not really that far behind

Equivocate all you want, the weight of all these 'almost equal to' means clear superiority for european empires. In addition to the ability to project power on the other side of the world, which is still today used as a measure of power.

Really, 'pants on head' silly? Shouldn't you at least try to make a case for non-western superiority in the early 18th century, before you start throwing accusations of total silliness around?

And still, early 18th century is way too conservative imo, the portuguese were projecting power and winning battles due to superior tech in the indian sea in the early 16th century.

I am to understand that the most, uh, ?industrialised? and mercantile regions of China and (maybe) South Asia, for example, were also not really that far behind in per-capita terms vis a vis e.g. Britain.

Sounds interesting, I'd like to read the source.

Equivocate all you want, the weight of all these 'almost equal to' means clear superiority for european empires. In addition to the ability to project power on the other side of the world, which is still today used as a measure of power.

And still, early 18th century is way too conservative imo, the portuguese were projecting power and winning battles due to superior tech in the indian sea in the early 16th century.

That seems to me to be half a matter of exceptional European maritime competency and half exceptional European drive, both explainable by that Europe had been, for centuries, trying to get more direct access to Asian markets for luxuries, while the main Asian players were largely uninterested in actively seeking out Europe. There are cases, as you note, like some of the Portuguese conquests (e.g. Malacca), where there was an overwhelming difference in technology which lead to European victory (in Malacca, the lack of knowledge of gunpowder weapons). But even then it is only because the Portuguese had an incentive to conquer e.g. Malacca; notably, if the Ottomans or the Ming or the Delhi Sultanate or the Safavids had the will to send a thousand soldiers with gunpowder weapons to conquer Malacca, they would also have been able to do so (and out of these states, the Ming and Ottomans certainly had the shipbuilding technology, + I would be surprised if the Indians or the Iranians wouldn't have been able to muster up something). China had sporadic clashes with Europeans all the way up to the Opium Wars, and in general they didn't fare too badly - not because Chinese military technology was necessarily superior, but the Europeans were campaigning too far from home; the Ming freely admit in their annals that European shipbuilding and fortbuilding (and guns!) were superior, and had adopted innovations re: guns, and were starting to adopt e.g. the star fortress before collapsing. (In this I am thinking of Dutch Formosa and the various Qing-Russian border conflicts, though I think there are more.)

The main problem with this is that even with technological superiority, complete antagonism only really worked with limited conflict, often with smaller players, and doesn't really dovetail well with the idea that Europe was simply so strong that it could muscle its way everywhere through sheer civilisational superiority. I suggested the embarrassing episode of the BEIC squabbling with the Mughals, leading to an obvious Mughal victory without them even doing much, because despite European superiority in technology, it's just hard to wage war far away from home. (Same goes with e.g. the Anglo-Marathan War.) which makes it difficult to really dominate somewhere unless you're able to play local parties against one another (e.g. the British conquest of India), or you have such a overwhelming technological, socially or materially, that your opponents can't catch up (the Malaccan example above, Scramble for Africa, etc.). European domination of the world, or Asia in particular, would not have materialised with relatively slight advantages, far from home, against larger states, not until other circumstances changed (e.g. industrial revolution capitalising on the scientific revolution, fracturing of India, catastrophic Qing weakness starting in early 19C, etc.)

And this isn't even mentioning that relatively organised states could readily adapt to new changes. Consider Korea at the turn of the 16th century; it started out as a poorly militarised state when the Japanese, at the time likely fielding the largest army in the world, invaded in 1592; it came out of the war (+ Ming help) with one of, if not the, best-trained and armed musketeer forces in the world.

Really, 'pants on head' silly? Shouldn't you at least try to make a case for non-western superiority in the early 18th century, before you start throwing accusations of total silliness around?

But my point is that I don't need to prove non-Western superiority to make the case that the focus on Western abstract superiority tells us very little about how power actually flowed in Asia, at least until the industrial revolution!

Sounds interesting, I'd like to read the source.

An easy source for China for comparing is China, Europe, and the Great Divergence: A Study in Historical National Accounting, 980–1850, where the authors argue:

From an international perspective, Northern Song China was richer than Domesday Britain in 1090, but Britain had caught up with China by the fifteenth century. Although China had the highest standard of living in the world during the Northern Song dynasty, Italy had already forged ahead by 1300. At this point, however, and even until the eighteenth century, it is quite possible that a relatively rich Chinese region such as the Yangzi Delta was on par with the most developed parts of Europe. But Chinese GDP per capita declined sharply during the Qing dynasty, just when parts of northwest Europe made the transition to modern economic growth, so that by the middle of the eighteenth century, the gap between China and the most developed parts of Europe was too large to be bridged by any discussion of regional variation within China.

And suggest that:

The California School were therefore right to claim that, considering regional variation, historical differences in economic performance between China and Europe were much less than was once thought. However, the early claims of the California School went too far: China and Europe were already on different trajectories before the Industrial Revolution, as European economic historians have traditionally maintained. The Great Divergence began earlier than the nineteenth century.

If you're interested in a graphical view and explanation:

The Figure 8 in question below.

Li Bozhong and Jan Luiten van Zanden have produced a comparison of GDP per capita in the Yangzi Delta and the Netherlands in the early nineteenth century, finding per capita incomes in the Yangzi Delta to be 53.8 percent of the level in the Netherlands in the 1820s. This suggests a per capita GDP figure of $1,050 for the Lower Yangzi, in 1990 international dollars, or about 75 percent higher than in China as a whole. A high estimate for GDP per capita in the Yangzi Delta in earlier years would apply this ratio to our estimates of per capita GDP for China as a whole. This produces our Yangzi (H) series in Figure 8, which also plots the GDP per capita data for the richest part of Europe. The European frontier is based on Italy until the 1540s, followed by the Netherlands until the 1800s and then Great Britain. Although the Netherlands enjoyed a significant lead over the Yangzi Delta in the early seventeenth century, this should be understood as a very small region of Europe, with no other North Sea area economies enjoying a significant advantage over the Yangzi Delta. But once Great Britain, the Netherlands, and Belgium had all forged ahead of the Yangzi Delta during the first half of the eighteenth century, this is too large an area to be ignored.

Figure 8 also includes an alternative low estimate of GDP per capita in the Yangzi Delta, shown by the dashed line Yangzi (L). This is derived by rebasing the Yangzi (H) series on an alternative mid-nineteenth century benchmark from Xu et al. Their figure for China’s GDP per capita in 1850 is obtained by accepting Maddison’s estimate for 1933 and projecting backwards using a different series. Instead of our figure of $600 in 1850, this yields an alternative estimate of $472, which is getting quite close to bare bones subsistence of $400, thus providing an effective lower bound. Note that even with this lower bound series, although western Europe appears to start forging ahead in the sixteenth century, GDP per capita in the Yangzi Delta remains 78 percent of the level of the leading European country as late as 1700, and the first half of the eighteenth century remains a critical juncture.

Edit: This is not even to go into different labour market pressures in Europe vs in China, which is another huge topic all on its own; Elvin's theory of the High Level Equilibrium Trap is one such theory for why such pressures (+ other factors) lead to China not maintaining a "civilisational lead", though I am not entirely convinced by it and tend to think it was much messier.

Regarding technology transfers re: gunpowder weapons, an interesting recent resource is The Gunpowder Age which argues for relative parity in gunpowder weaponry (at least with China) until mid-18C, though I would be surprised if this finding didn't replicate to some extent with other Asian states.

I am less sure about the Indian subcontinent, but I am led to understand that out of all the Mughal provinces, Bengal was very rich, producing something like half of the entire empire's wealth or something.

I was having a conversation about admitting you were wrong, and I remembered this comment. Just wanted to say it was an absolute top-notch comment that considerably mollified my view, I didn’t know urban china was so rich. I didn’t answer at the time because I was waffling between just thanking you and counterarguing by going through sources etc, and obviously I didn’t get round to either. Anyway, thank you.

Glad to be of service! If there are any questions I can try to answer to the best of my ability.

Is this your job or are you just wise?

More comments

In the early 18th Century Mughal India overtook Imperial China to become the largest economy of the world, responsible for 25% of total worldwide production, more than the entirety of Western Europe combined.

I would be careful with statements like these, if only because GDP projections into the past are based on assumptions larger than the solar system, even if how we come to these results are interesting and informative. Just to casually rebuff your assessment, I’m guessing you took these estimates from Maddison? A more recent reconstruction by Broadberry gives us quite different GDPs, with India never quite getting over Chinese GDP (both per-capita and in gross, given that the populations were relatively similar in 1700 at ~150-160m) during the 18th century, even as Qing Chinese GDP per capita fell steadily throughout the 18th century. Maddison’s reconstructions (esp. the earlier reconstructions), I believe, simply has population equating to total wealth in pre-industrial societies, due to the assumption that most everyone were subsistence farmers in pre-industrial society. Notably this Malthusian assumption isn’t really quite how things were, especially in e.g. Song China, or in the the more mercantile areas of Europe, etc.

Even without those estimates and reconstructions, I would be skeptical of the claim that India eclipsed China at the beginning of the 18th century; it would make more sense for India to have overtaken China during the 17th century, especially during the enormously destructive implosion of the Ming and its conquest by the Manchu Qing, and while the Mughals were still strong; and it makes no sense for (Mughal!) India to have overtaken China in the start of the 18th century, when the Qing had entered the High Qing golden age, and the Mughals had just decisively lost against the Marathas (and soon to disintegrate), with the 3-decade war causing/exacerbating plague and famine in India!

Edit: I didn’t even mention differences in wealth and productivity per capita, which likely had Europe leap ahead of esp. India quite early (though not all due to positive events)!

I took it from Wikipedia, but you're right the reference for this on there comes from Maddison. The early 18th century was a bit of a misnomer from me, the Wiki reference used the date 1700 (technically still the 17th century) as the time of the takeover and indeed that was the height of their territorial/cultural power. The Mughals did decline during the 18th century but equally at the same time the Marathas were growing a lot and they still count as India.

I hadn't heard of Broadberry, I'll take a look.

On a further tangent, whether China > India or India > China specifically at 1700 is kind of whatever to me, potayto potahto; but the most egregious part of the Maddison statistics I find personally is its assessment of Song dynasty China as significantly behind India during its early-mid medieval period, when Song dynasty China was pretty much unquestionably the most advanced and richest economy in the world during its existence. I think that is indicative of poor methodology or better current understanding (and my understanding is as above: Maddison, being the first to even try to do comparative historical GDP reconstructions, made an assumption that is now getting revised).

I don’t blame you for using that data since it’s most easily available, but unfortunately things can be misleading sometimes, and the truth is often so much more interesting.

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