This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Unfortunately, part of what it has been about in the original article and how it has been expressed has been to relate it with particular tribe and dogma and to be passive aggressive about other political tribes being conflict theorists.
I fundamentally don't agree with the positive idea that rationalists have about themselves.
So I see the way you define it to be part of a motte and bailey.
But everyone is motivated to support their side. And in doing so, they tend to see others as wrong.
Rationalists who are obviously liberals who are animated by their dogma and priors, are just not truthful if they act as if they are only motivated by what is rational and correct. In fact it is quite an aggressive and arrogant move to make such strong claim and distinction, and it has been a core part of how it has been used. And we have seen the rationalist types including Scott Siskind get involved with all sorts of networks.
Indeed, I would suggest people to research the rationalist movement without looking just as this specific subset of rationalist movement. Which isn't that different from the general. All sorts of far leftists, marxists and liberals proclaiming their ideology rationalism, scientific has existed for quite a while in modernity. The trap in this movement has always been declaring their ideology scientific and their approach rational, bias and tribalism free, even though that isn't at all the case. Basically, rather than achieving what they claim to aspire, their presumptuousness of having done so and being dismissive of other valid perspectives like the ones you see in Scott's article that genuinely does that and associates conclusions about all sorts of topics with mistake theory or negatively with conflict theory (which is going to influence people, you can't strip that away), leads to a peculiar dogmatism that is unaware of itself. Which makes the movement arrogant.
That doesn't lead only to marxists and scientific marxism but even people like Karl Popper who end up becoming the mentors of people like George Soros.
Except for mistake theorists, who are [in and according to that theory] more motivated by the desire to get the correct answer. People who think other people work like that are mistake theorists. It's that weird brain thing that makes some people choose "co-operate" as the first move in a prisoner's dilemma game.
The problem is that for people who tend to get right answers most of the time, their mistake theory is functionally indistinguishable from conflict theory in favor of "people who get the right answers more often than not" privilege (from the perspective of people who are wrong). Their correct answers oppress those who don't get things right, thus the need to redistribute their correctness, by force if necessary.
I don't agree that self proclaimed mistake theorists are more motivated by the desire to get the correct answer, than to support their side. My argument is that the label is associated with a broader movement and views that for a very long time organizing in their groups, has been proclaiming its ideology as scientific, rational. And it is a movement that is about a shared belief system and tribal sympathies. A movement that has operated for quite a while, more than a century. A lot of blind faith and fanaticism. A lot of propaganda about how they are rational, the future, etc, etc.
This faith to their own righteousness and rationality, just cause isn't about the supernatural, doesn't mean it isn't a very deep and blind faith. This is a core dogma of rationalistic movements that are about specific ideological priors and specific ends, even where such ends could, or would be harmful. There isn't any strong tendencies for reexamination and internal change, in such situations.
I agree that it is functionally indistinguishable.
As for them being on the right, imposing the truth to those who are wrong, that is an enormous issue. From a perspective of various religions, imposing their dogma, is imposing the truth against the ignorant and heretics.
To give in to the presumption that self proclaimed mistake theorists get it right will excuse their attempt to force their way to the rest of us, no? Movements proclaiming themselves to have it all figured out of rationalist type have existed since the French revolution with its cult of reason, and some of various different intensities. Not all are the same but all have strong shared elements. Their record has resulted in plenty of excesses and failures to put it in understated terms.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link