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PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   36912 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 22, 2024

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I don't think Kamala should be judged for being in on it. I think a lot of people overestimate how plugged in VPs are. The President has no responsibility, none at all, to keep the VP in the loop on anything. So we don't know if Kamala knew anything.

Secondly, she's responsible and accountable to Biden, not the media. A VP that undermines the government she is in is acting irresponsibly. That loyalty isn't infinite, but it doesn't extend to making a judgement call that Biden isn't competent and then revealing it publicly. That's not just undermining Biden, it's undermining the position of the US Government.

Thirdly, had Kamala said something, you would as sure as sunshine be carping about what a disloyal, ambitious snake she was for doing so.

I don't think her actions were terribly unusual. It is very typical of politicians (or businessmen) to say that Mr X has their full confidence a day before firing him, or rebelling against him, or whatever. It is dishonest, sure. But such dishonesty is in some ways, necessary to keep organisations running. Certainly the alternative - for people to immediately blurt out every doubt and negative thought they have about each other - is unthinkable.

I think a lot of people overestimate how plugged in VPs are. The President has no responsibility, none at all, to keep the VP in the loop on anything. So we don't know if Kamala knew anything.

Well she should probably not be making statements supporting the president's and his mental acuity as though she's actually aware and in the loop, eh?

This is a bit ridiculous to argue if the premise is that Kamala didn't know what apparently, as we have recently learned, was evident to tons of people in Biden's orbit for months and months.

Like, she must have been intentionally ignoring it at that point.

Thirdly, had Kamala said something, you would as sure as sunshine be carping about what a disloyal, ambitious snake she was for doing so.

Nope. I don't go caring about how politicians treat each other in almost any context. The whole problem is that they're TOO loyal to each other and view their whole political class as an ingroup.

she's responsible and accountable to Biden, not the media.

Funny, I would have argued she's MORE responsible and accountable to her constituents. The ones she lied to. But as we've seen, the Dems don't actually need their voters input, so maybe you're right.

It is dishonest, sure. But such dishonesty is in some ways, necessary to keep organisations running.

So what, if any, punishment is proper for when the dishonesty actually had tangible consequences and is finally revealed to truth?

Or should we promote the dishonest person to a higher position?

I dunno, just seems like you'll get more dishonesty, which TO ME is a major detriment to having functional, accountable organizations.

There's a difference between something being known and something being known. There is no reason to believe that Kamala knew anything that wasn't published in the New York Times. And when I say "know", I don't mean in the smug way that people online apparently know everything, usually after it happens and rarely before. So what actually, should Kamala have said or done? Given a press conference to say that he stopped calling her? To say that he's old? To say that China should invade now while Biden's napping?

You do understand, I hope, the difference here? That actually, every level of government and business in the universe is built upon a certain expectation of loyalty and trust, and that is infinitely more true when we're talking about POTUS? It's not the job of the Vice President to brief the media against the President. If it's believed he's truly incapable, invoke the 25th. Otherwise, what exactly would be gained by gossipping to journalists who have no power?

There's no reason, either, that Kamala would, or should, see undermining the President and her party's Presidential candidate as good for the country.

As far as I know, there are no tangible consequences to the revelation that Biden is losing it, aside from him stepping aside as candidate, which is not even a tangible consequence yet (it might be in six months if Kamala becomes President instead of Trump). If there was some aspect of his responsibilities that was neglected, you'd say so. The real shocking part is not that the President is a vegetable, but that nobody really noticed any material difference in the operation of the country.

If there was some aspect of his responsibilities that was neglected, you'd say so.

If I point out that there's literal millions of illegal border crossing happening on his watch what would you say to that?

Does "controlling the influx of foreign citizens entering the country" count as an "aspect of his responsibilities?"

Does allowing millions to enter and remain in the country without documentation count as 'neglect' of that aspect?

Then that's one. I could go on but I don't think that's the actual topic we're on.

I don't think you're adding much to my judgment of her character or fitness, just further deflections.

I stand by my position that I cannot choose Kamala due to demonstrated incompetence, dishonesty, and lack of actual tangible support for her candidacy because she skipped the normal process.

And you've provided the same weak excuses as everyone else. "SHE COULDN'T HAVE KNOWN!"

A competent leader would have. And would have said something. And wouldn't have lied.

So I will not reward the deceitful, incompetent leader with a promotion.

Oh, I don't think that Kamala is honest or competent. But I don't put this debacle on her. It's ultimately Biden's fault, he's the President and 100% responsible for his decision to seek reelection.

Uh, there's a point here where if the whole argument is that he's becoming senile, then his 'decision' to seek re-election is, in a deeper sense, NOT his responsibility, because SOMEBODY WHO NOTICED HIS DECLINE COULD HAVE STEPPED IN, noticing that his judgment is faulty.

There is in fact an existing precedent for removing an unfit president and of course the Democrats can choose to hold primaries and candidates can choose to run against Biden, so I think 100% is a tad high.

Biden is surrounded by people. He probably has more people around him than any other human being alive. It's not the job, specifically, of the VP to be his physician, or to advocate against him.

It comes up, often, in discussions of nuclear weapons and their use whether officers in the nuclear chain could refuse to carry out orders if they were insane or came from an insane president. It's certainly within the realm of imagination. But to put it bluntly, it's not reasonable. Military officers are trained and selected to obey orders, not to question them. It's not reasonable to expect them to be a check on the President. So too, for the VP. The VP is not now, and never will be, a check on the President. I just don't feel that's a reasonable expectation.

There is no precedent for removing an "unfit president". Kamala could invoke the 25th, and likely fail, or Congress could impeach Biden. Neither of those things have ever been done successfully to a sitting President. It's not clear, either, what these things have to do with going to the press and telling them that Biden is unfit. The media cannot remove Biden from office!

It's not the job, specifically, of the VP to be his physician, or to advocate against him.

Should she advocate for him while knowing his condition? Is that her job?

https://www.dailynews.com/2024/06/29/kamala-harris-reiterates-faith-in-bidens-leadership-at-brentwood-fundraiser/

Getting kinda amused by the deflections that ignore that she was not neutral or silent during this process. She doesn't get to dodge judgment for statements she actually made.

Just how, precisely, do you find it acceptable to be lied to directly, in a way that REALLY matters, and then decide to PROMOTE the person who lied to you?

HOW?

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