This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
It's crass, but the simplest heuristic for 'greatness', if taken to mean the person with the most athletic prowess, is money. Fame also counts for something.
The top badminton player this year won about $650,000, approximately on par with the 460th player in the NBA. NBA (or UEFA, or NFL) money attracts far more competition than swimming, track and field, or gymnastics. It is also a measure of popularity and therefore the size of the starting pool of players.
I wouldn't say that Lebron James is superior to Lionel Messi simply because his net worth is twice as high - but I also wouldn't dismiss the notion offhand. But the US is a richer economy than most, and US sports are overpaid. And, again, Messi gets global fame and recognition as the pinnacle of the world's most popular sport. Once you're getting $500 million, you can afford to value those things more than another $500 million.
In short, I don't think most of the olympians have come through as intense a field as the professionals, and are not nearly as much of talent outliers.
The best heuristic for any general GOAT tier list on Popular Website is popularity. Michael Phelps is not nearly as popular as Lionel Messi. But, he exists in the same realm for people who read and write ESPN editorials. Which are primarily non-soccer watching Americans.
My mother would recognize all the top 10 names on this list. Once you get to Novak Djokovic her would knowledge drops off. (She would recognize 5 of the 9 names that follow Djokovic.) Michael Phelps is not as famous as Messi, but in terms of Olympic gold medals he can't be beat. Americans like gold medals. They're great, because we're great. Someone who gets all the gold medals at the Olympics should be top of the list. Any list will do, but especially GOAT lists.
Also, Olympians definitely do not have to prove themselves the same as world class spectator sport athletes. That's what makes the Olympics cool. Highly dedicated non-pros -- that now receive oodles of money from their respective countries to train -- get one or two shots in a lifetime to get the glory. Messi goes out there every week for 20 years.
Now, who the hell is Diana Taurasi?
Editor's note: Badminton is as fun as fun gets. We need to close the #wagegap between badminton players and other people playing more difficult, popular sports. The top 30 badminton pros should make as much as starters on the USWNT.
More options
Context Copy link
That’s why it is really funny that so many wnba players are listed…
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link