site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 15, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

9
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

People are making hay of this old tweet from Vance.

But I'm not surprised by Trump's rise, and I think the entire party has only itself to blame. We are, whether we like it or not, the party of lower-income, lower-education white people, and I have been saying for a long time that we need to offer those people SOMETHING (and hell, maybe even expand our appeal to working class black people in the process) or a demagogue would. We are now at that point. Trump is the fruit of the party's collective neglect. 3) I go back and forth between thinking Trump is a cynical asshole like Nixon who wouldn't be that bad (and might even prove useful) or that he's America's Hitler. How's that for discouraging?

Of course, the usual suspects in the MSM are not quoting the whole tweet, just the Hitler part. I think the whole quote is a lot more interesting, and makes a lot of sense.

A lot of never Trumpers (like Vance) are coming to the conclusion that Trump is actually not all that bad. We saw what a first term looked like. It was pretty middle of the road, with some modest successes in foreign policy and taxation.

Now we see Trump on the campaign trail on his best behavior. 2016 Trump might have mocked Biden during the debate. 2024 Trump did not. As President, will he put aside his ego and listen to the smart people in the room like Vance, Thiel, Vivek, Ackman, or Musk? Being entirely unbeholden to the powers that be, there's a sense that a Trump administration can effect real and lasting change. And the assassination attempt has given Trump much needed gravitas which might carry over into a popular mandate.

I go back and forth between thinking Trump is a cynical asshole like Nixon who wouldn't be that bad (and might even prove useful) or that he's America's Hitler.

I guess he landed on option 1.

A lot of never Trumpers (like Vance) are coming to the conclusion that Trump is actually not all that bad. We saw what a first term looked like. It was pretty middle of the road, with some modest successes in foreign policy and taxation.

This is exactly why I have zero trouble believing that Vance is a genuine convert. I share quite a few demographic attributes with Vance. In 2016, I did not vote for Trump, I condemned him as a personally immoral man and worried in text messages about his potentially destabilizing impact on the country. By early 2020, I still thought he was a personally immoral man, but a decent enough President. After Kavanaugh, Covid lockdowns, Floyd riots, and so many more things big and small, I was dead-set against the Democrat Party and voted for Trump, the first time I had ever voted Republican. After what I consider four years of awful governance and an attempted assassination, I'm ready to don a red hat. Maybe Vance is just seeing where the wind blows, but it's not hard at all for me to think that a white guy in his late 30s from the Midwest thinks the things Vance articulates.

I have zero trouble believing that Vance is a genuine convert

There's some joke here about Vance converting to Catholicism and Trumpism recently.

don a red hat

Get it?

it's not hard at all for me to think that a white guy in his late 30s from the Midwest thinks the things Vance articulates.

My dad’s side of the family are West Virginia hill folk that moved to southwestern Ohio for factory work, and I spent the first half of my childhood in Ohio.

Hillbilly Elegy was the first book I read that sounded like stories I used to hear. There was the time the town got a cop car which was burned shortly after. There was the child molester that disappeared and for which it was strongly implied that an uncle had taken care of him. And then the relatives that had chaotic lives of drinking and drugs.