site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 1, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Sandman was good. I liked Good Omens (probably I liked the Terry Pratchett parts more than the Neil Gaiman parts). Most of the other stuff of his I've read has been "meh," and struck me as a bit on the pretentious "Look at me, an Artist, making Art" side.

As far as people digging through his "problematic" material, he got some flack even back in the 90s for the character of Wanda, a transwoman, who was positively portrayed, but at one point couldn't participate in a magic ritual because the moon goddess or something didn't recognize her as a woman. (Transphobic goddesses!)

I did kind of notice that in American Gods, the main character's wife dies while blowing another guy in a moving vehicle. Like, that's the sort of narrative detail that is, um, a choice. And it was not the first or last time I noticed that Gaiman makes these sorts of choices in his stories, so him turning out to be a little skeevy doesn't surprise me. That said, I admit to being rather skeptical of these "abuse" allegations (which sound to me a lot like "Never meet your heroes and definitely you shouldn't fuck them"), and finding considerable irony in that it seems to be the TERF brigade who dragged them out and is currently boosting them most heavily on social media (because Gaiman has been quite vocal about being pro-trans rights).

And it was not the first or last time I noticed that Gaiman makes these sorts of choices in his stories, so him turning out to be a little skeevy doesn't surprise me.

Every writer who is trying to be edgy, particularly ones who are trying to be both literary and edgy, is going to put something like that in their work.

(Especially for a writer who learned his trade writing comics, where the medium has traditionally been for kids, so writing like that is subversive and artistic and an especially good signal of literary merit.)