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Not at all, I don't think you were able to provide a good argument against it. Indeed you conceded it when you said those ideologies only got treated better when the outcome was self-destructive. Trans people wanting surgeries is (assuming you think it is destructive at all), self-destructive! Therefore my point was correct!
And it can't be that spreading the ideology counts as harming others because otherwise Jehovahs Witnesses who are famously aggressive about spreading their faith which then causes people to refuse life saving treatment would fall afoul of it.
So far your arguments seem to come from a place of disliking the trans movement then rationalizing why it is uniquely bad, when it simply does not seem much worse than things we do tolerate when it comes to self-determination, then tying your arguments in knots about it.
Your own post doesn't show there is no informed consent, it says specifically for children (only a subset of trans people!) Informed consent is hard because sometimes parents giving consent don't understand and sometimes kids don't understand. I agree thats a tough issue, but its one that happens in medicine all the time. Do you think young kids understand what death is, and it might happen because their parents are against blood transfusions or the like? Do the parents having been raised into a religion that teaches them weird things really have the ability to give informed consent?
And the answer is we basically shrug our shoulders and say yeah, close enough. And its only in the most dire circumstances where courts sometimes decide to override it. And I think thats reasonable for trans issues too. If going ahead is going to lead to death then sure override the parents and kids choices. Perfectly happy with that.
But we accept that people (or parents on behalf of their children) get to make risky decisions all the time. But it seems an isolated demand for rigor to require people to be (as the WPATH person themselves said would be ideal) "tiny endocrinologists" when we do not demand that for people going through even riskier treatments.
Hell the JW'S have a whole network of people whose job it is to convince the hospital and pressure the parents on behalf of the church to not use blood treatments. And we allow that in 99% of cases with no problem at all. When the outcome is a higher risk of death, we allow parents or patients to make stupid calls all the time, yet for trans issues all of a sudden, it's way too risky?
If the parents disagree then absolutely I am on board with restricting trans care. If the parents and kid are on board, well we don't intervene until their actions are about to cause a high risk of death in most cases (and sometimes not even then!) why should this issue be different?
Then in the future, don't change the topic without further comment, if you don't want to leave the impression you're conceding.
When applied to trans people requesting the surgeries, yes. When it's applied to gender-affirming doctors providing and promoting it, it becomes completely incorrect.
Yes. It's not just spreading the ideology, it's carrying out the actual procedure that is harmful. Also, Jehovah's Witnesses, for all their faults, stay away from other people's children.
False. There are massive qualitative differences between it, and the things we tolerate as self-determination, which you are ignoring.
You know full well this is irrelevant to the argument. I never explicitly argued against "gernder affirming" procedures for adults. I only argue about the scientific accuracy of how they're being sold, but if an adult wants to do it regardless I'm not against it. When it comes to adults, I only oppose the imposition of the trans worldview. The demands to affirm them as women, by allowing them access into female spaces, etc.
"And so I think the more we can normalize that it is okay to not get this right away, it is okay to have questions, the more we're going to actually do a real informed consent process. Then what I think has been currently happening and that I think is frankly, not what we need to be doing ethically."
Is not a statement of "informed consent is hard" it's a statement of admission to failure of getting real informed consent.
No.
Yes.
The funny thing here is that this logic justifies completely banning GAC. You've been trying to catch me on an inconsistency, but you're the only one with inconsistent views.
What gives you the idea that we do not demand it for other treatments? On what grounds are you claiming they're riskier? If you give a kid chemotherapy, and tell them "we're giving you poison hoping that it will kill the thing hurting you. You're going to feel bad for a while, but there's a good chance you will be healthy after that", they will have a far better understanding of the treatment than anything they give related to GAC. These kids are often too young to grasp the first thing about sex, and even when they do, their notion of long-term consequences is still completely warped. This is when parents are supposed to take over, but the ones that are skeptical are often being outright lied to.
Again, there's a massive difference between letting someone opt out of a treatment, and letting them opt in. We have mountains upon mountains of books of regulations preventing arbitrary opt-in for medicine. Why is transgender care supposed to be different?
You're the one advocating for treating it different
I notice none of this addresses the previous topic of the conversation. If you wanted to talk about the substance of my issues with transgender care, that's fine (I'm more interested in that than the ethical calculus applied to ideologies. But you started with the latter, and are moving on to the former, while leaving me with no conclusion. Please concede or come back.
They do not. They attempt to convert them. They even take their own kids along to help. As they attempt to convert adults as well. And if they convert them, then they will refuse blood products and risk death or greater harm than would otherwise befall them. If it is the spread of the trans ideology that is a problem, then JW's also fall afoul of it. Because they try to change you and your children into believing what they believe. That is why they come knocking at your door. Now of course they believe they are saving you. And if they are right, then them spending their time knocking on your door for the 1% chance you might believe them and convert is a great service to you and your children.
No, because i don't think you are understanding my position. If the evidence shows that GAC leads to an increased risk of death then I am perfectly happy for that choice to be overridden parental or not. I don't care enough about it, to be an advocate for it. I am not really for or against GAC, my position is that if the parents and child are all on board then that is up to them and not really my business. What I do care about is how it is used as a pinata when many of the arguments against it are also arguments against many things we do allow and this is conveniently ignored. So my position is not inconsistent, I am just against the perceived hypocrisy. We have established processes for how to deal with potential harm to kids where their parents are behind/ in agreement with it. We can just use those as necessary. Trans ideology is no worse than many others that we currently mostly ignore. That's what annoys me (well a bit, enough to post about it here, but not enough to actually do anything about it, because I don't actually care THAT much). If GAC is harmful then sure ban it, but then I want to be able to be taking a good look at all the other harmful things we allow parents to do, because there is no reason the trans issue should be the only one.
I also don't agree that opting into a treatment or out of one in this context is relevant. We allow parents to make many choices for their kids some of which increase harm by doing something (taking them white water rafting or hiking in the desert, or allowing them to drink enough sugar to float a battleship) and some where they increase harm by not doing something (not giving them blood, not allowing them surgery, turning down chemotherapy, not making them go outside and exercise). And in almost all of those cases we simply allow them to get on with it up to the point of a very serious risk of death (and even then intervention is spotty). And that is regardless of whether they have been influenced by their religion or their belief system in crystals or astrology or veganism or because they are unfamiliar with how risky certain things are. We give parents very broad autonomy to indoctrinate their children into what ever oddball belief system they like, but this is the one all of a sudden where we draw the line? It looks like blatant special pleading.
It does not matter if the parents or kid have been influenced by trans ideology, everyone is influenced by some ideology and it does not generally invalidate their decision making, whether we think their ideology is nonsense or not , and regardless of whether we think the people championing it are talking nonsense or not. This is again special pleading. If Bob and Linda want to tell Gene he can be a girl if he likes, then that is their business not mine. Just as it would be if they want Gene to be raised believing space aliens live in volcanos and how this will cripple his cognition for the rest of his life, or teach him God is always watching him masturbating so that he will have horrible guilt around sex. That is the deal. We all get to try and spread our ideologies then people can act on which ever one they believe.
Either I get to be involved in these decisions or I do not, I just dislike it when people are inconsistent about how much other people's kids belong to them. I am teaching my kids the truth, you are brainwashing your kids into a harmful ideology. Pick one or the other. Either I get to be involved before we are literally talking about kids about to die, or I don't.
Separately, if specific doctors are not explaining the procedures and potential outcomes such that patients/parents cannot give informed consent then those doctors should be subject to whatever local disciplinary measures they have. If they are, but are themselves just wrong about those outcomes then that is sad but again something we tolerate every day. This is not some new thing we just came up with. We already had this conversation as a society and decided the answer was, your kids, your choices, until you are literally about to kill them, then maybe we will stop you. Let's not open that can of worms because that truce is there for a reason.
I regret to inform you that you landed on a topic I have considerable personal familiarity with. Every single time I opened the door for them as a kid, they asked if there is an adult in the house, and did an about-face when the answer was negative. The most they'd dare to do is leave their copies of the Watchtower at the door. I knew 3 Jehovah's Witness kids throughout the different schools I went to. Literally none of them ever tried to convert anyone. Not even with a "come over to my house, me and my special friends are having a party" type of thing. If anything they were at constant risk of being converted away from their parents' faith.
If you go through my arguments on the subject, you'll find that precisely none of them are about parents transing their own kids.
I am not in favor of treating GAC in a special way and you haven't shown any way in which my approach would be special pleading. You or singularly focused on likelihood of harm, which I consider irrelevant, and very strange from someone who started the conversation with "thats because most people are not hard consequentialists".
Among the things we do not allow them to do, is buying whatever medicine fits their fancy. It's completely normal for medicines that are completely mundane by comparison to hormones or blockers (let alone surgeries) to be regulated, and their distribution be limited. Like I said, if you want to move to a system where anyone can buy whatever medicine for whatever purpose they see fit, I have my objections, but I can hear you out. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You want to allow GAC on self-determination grounds, but are not prepared to turn our medical system upside down. I'm saying if you want one, you must do the other. Self-determination means self-determination for all, not just the magical category of "trans".
Where, in my entire history of posting long-ass posts on the subject here, have I ever objected to parents indoctrinating their own children into gender ideology?
That's fair, but go ahead and show me an inconsistency I actually have, rather than getting angry at something you imagined.
This is exactly what I want. Subject GAC to the same standards of scientific rigor we apply to other forms of medicine, and subject the doctors practicing it to the same ethical standards that other doctors are subject to. This is currently not the case, so to make it happen I have to convince people that scientific / ethical standards are not being applied by means of public debate, and lobbying for regulation, just like we do for every other aspect of our society.
Two things here. A truce where progressive parents get to trans their own kids, but they, and the doctors, stay the hell away from more conservative parents in any medical and/or cultural way, is acceptable to me.
But I do not concede that any such truce, in the broad way you defined it, is in effect. We do not let parents order a doctor to remove their kids' appendix for shits and giggles, female circumcision is completely banned in Europe, you'd probably end up in a ton of trouble for off-label use of prescription medicine on your children. You say GAC must be legal, or else we should look at all the other harmful things we let parents do. I say it's the opposite, there's nothing wrong with regulating it, or else we must abolish every single instance of the government standing in the way of self-determination. Right now testosterone is considered so dangerous that an aging low-T man must jump through considerable hoops to convince his doctor to allow him to have some, but an adolescent girl can get it in a 15 minute appointment. If we're regulating adult's access to hormones, we sure as hell can regulate children's access.
As do I, which is how I know. My wife was an ex-Jehovah's Witness and her family all still are, so I have considerable familiarity with how they operate and have been to multiple JW events. JW's do not baptize until adulthood, but they absolutely will attempt to convert children, they don't typically do that on a door to door visit with no adults around, because that looks very shady. But they absolutely will given the chance, my wife as a kid, had classes on how to talk to other kids about it. What do you think the point of leaving the Watchtower with you was about? I disagree with them fundamentally on almost everything, but the vast majority of them are good hearted people who truly believe what they are doing is for our own good and I think that does count for something.
That isn't the truce though. We have accepted it is ok to try and convert other people to our belief systems. Do conservatives try to stay away from say regulating abortion for other people, and persuading them it is wrong? No. There is no reason that trans advocates should be prevented from trying to spread their ideology. And you of course can spread yours, and I can spread mine and then the people we convert can choose to do what they like within that framework. Hell, the fact that I am here, means I accept Nazis and communists and antisemites and age of consent people should all be able to do that. And if that convinces doctors and parents that giving blood is harmful, or that GAC is good, then those are the results of our competing ideologies. We have to give people some level of agency. I accept a limit on significant amounts of harm should be imposed by the state. I don't stand in the way of JW's coming to your house and I won't stand in the way of trans advocates doing it either, whether it is in person, through TV shows, or whatever. If they win and change the culture they will deserve to have done so, just as the JW's would if they managed to convert 90% of the US. If you don't want to let them in your house that is entirely up to you. And if your kid decides they are JW or trans and you want to stop them then you should be allowed to try to stop them. And they can then go to the courts and try to emancipate themselves or argue you are harming them or whatever and then that decision can be made. I repeat, this is not a new thing, we have been dealing with how much control have over kids and where that balance lies either when parents want to do something dumb or the kids do. And if the trans advocates have managed to convince the judges then that too should be reflected in the outcomes. Just as elections have consequences so do to cultural changes. Christianity won for a long time, and was able to set and create a culture based upon it. And other ideologies should get the same chance. If they fail, they fail, it won't be the end of the world. If they succeed, it will also not be the end of the world.
I am fine with making getting testosterone easier for men sure, seems entirely reasonable. I accept the medical system in many countries is way too restrictive in allowing people access to drugs/treatments. But let's build on this victory not try to roll it back! This can be a template for how to persuade the medical community. Why nerf trans people's ability to get the treatment they want rather than buff everyone else's? If you want to give your son testosterone and they want it too, I'd suggest you find a doctor who can try to do it as safely as possible, but sure give it a whirl.
Not with me, at my doorstep. So my parents pick it up, and they do something with it, which everyone is aware almost noone ever does.
Even granting your portrayal of what they do, it pales in comparison to the sheer magnitude of the effort the rainbow industry puts into converting other people's kids. Though it must be said I do not grant your portrayal, since if they were as stubborn as you said, I would have been at the receiving end of it at some point, given my exposure. They don't even do door-to-door anymore from what I can tell. I only ever see them at subway / train stations, standing around with signs, and not approaching anyone, they're just waiting until they are approached.
??? We are currently in a situation where trans activists are persuading people to their belief system (using a lot of underhanded tactics that my side is not, by the way) and regulating in their favor, and my side is doing the same. Curiously you only complain about me, and never the trans activists, but ok. Anyway, I'm offering that we both stop - a truce. You say that's not a truce because... there's another active war on a completely different issue I have nothing to do with?
Right. And if the non-trans activists have managed to convince them that GAC should be banned, and GAC-doctors should be prosecuted, the same applies. What "double standard" were you even arguing against then?
Fine is not good enough. If you're going to go after me for proposing that I ban it for little girls, you better show me receipts for going after the current system for making it so hard to get for men. If not, you're the one with the double standard.
You said we shouldn't limit access to GAC because it would violate some sort of truce. I'm telling you no such truce exists, we violate self-determination routinely, for adults, so you cannot call upon it against my proposal to limit access to radical therapies for children. Now you're trying to use the first-person plural to portray it as some sort of victory for me? Why don't you just answer the point rather than trying to convince me this is something I asked for?
Yeah, here's the thing. You might convince me if the deal is we abolish the "medical community" as it's seen today. That was what you were implying in your argument - self-determination trumping scientific validity. If the medical community becomes just a bunch of service providers anyone can pick and choose, I might take it. I'm not interested in haggling over what the medical community allows the rest of us.
Because if we have a system where authorities are deciding who is allowed to use which medicine for what ailment, I want these authorities to prevent usage of very potent medicine in a way that is not scientifically valid, against an ailment that doesn't even have a proper definition, and cannot be reliably detected beyond a self-report.
I wish you'd address my arguments the way I actually present them, rather than constantly changing them to your liking. If anything we were talking about giving testosterone to aging me, when I'm starting to run short on it. And I just told you you're far more likely to find a doctor that will prescribe it to a little girl, than to an aging man.
I am saying that you cannot separate one issue from the others. I agree it would probably be better if we could, but that is not the reality of the situation. Alliances and coalitions have formed, and so beliefs are correlated, we can't simply trade one thing for another. We frame it as a culture war not a culture debate for a reason. Your side whether you like it or not includes people who are trying to do the very thing you want the trans community to stop doing to you, to others. If you want me (or some fictional me, who would care enough, and have enough time to do so) to go to bat against my side, you would need to go against yours. And what would actually happen is we would both end up being expelled from our sides for being traitors. And then we wouldn't have even a tiny amount of influence. We are judged not just by our own positions but also by the positions of those we are allied with. I don't think anyone is in a position to offer a truce at all. All that happens is that an equilibrium is reached where the people roughly settle on what they find acceptable. And to be clear I expect on the trans issue that will be somewhere short of where we are now. It just isn't anything that can be negotiated, it's emergent from people's reaction to the situation.
But that wouldn't be a one to one correlation. But in any case, I said I agree with you there no? Aging men should be able to access testosterone more easily. Your answer appears to be to make it harder for someone else, I would say let's make it easier for you and boys in general as an extension. If you want it to be easy to get these kind of interventions why aren't you arguing that instead of trying to make it more difficult for the other group, that doesn't actually include you? Isn't that the crabs in the bucket mentality often decried here? I can't get it easily, so these other people should not?
Then become a doctor or scientist and write papers about it. Because now we have just circled all the way back to the beginning, where they claim it is scientifically valid (and you say they are wrong) and back around we go.
Try to set aside whether you think they are scientifically right or wrong, and just look at what they are allowing, in almost all the instances you are talking about the parents, child and doctor are all agreed. So what's the big deal? Why should your judgement of what is harmful override theirs? Some chance one of your kids decides they are trans? Well you can deal with that by talking to them, and forbidding them treatment and assuming your spouse agrees, it is extremely unlikely they will ever be able to get treatment until they are an adult. They might be able to go to court and emancipate themselves early or perhaps get a court appointed guardian, but if your kid is willing to do all that to get treatment then that in and of itself is probably a pretty good indicator of actual intent. We can control a lot about our children but we cannot control everything. I'm pretty satisfied with "it is up to the parents except in unusual situations where a court gets to decide" I don't think that is going to break anything that allowing parents to decide on healthcare or when to withdraw healthcare does. There will be some cases where a court mandates healthcare is withdrawn over the parents wishes, or mandated over the parents wishes, but they will be few and far between and essentially a rounding error. Very sad for the families involved but you can't rearrange your entire system for rounding errors.
To try and close this down as we don't seem to be getting anywhere. I think it is absolutely ok to think trans ideology is harmful, I think it is perfectly ok to vote or take other actions downstream of that. What I don't think is ok is pretending this is some brand new thing that we let people's ideologies inform what harmful things they choose for their children and then demand this is the one we stop at. We have already done that for hundreds of years. This isn't anything new.
Finally I still submit that assuming the doctors are operating in good faith and trying to help not harm, they are less morally wrong than someone who is trying to harm. They may still need to be sanctioned and perhaps even commit a crime, but that is why we separate negligent homicide and manslaughter from first degree homicide, or even first degree homicide from 2nd degree. The intentions of a person have an impact on how moral their actions are perceived to be.
They may still be harming people! They may still need to be stopped! But I don't think you have come anywhere near persuading me that a trans advocate doctor who truly believes transitioning some 14yo boy will be best for them, is just as bad as some doctor who believes it will be bad but does it anyway for the lulz or because they are a sadist, or whatever. The child in question may suffer equal harm, but the level of harm is not the only component of moral judgement for anyone outside of hard consequentialists.
Ok then that has nothing to do with the origin of the whole argument, which was:
Like I said there is no such truce at the moment, and according to what you're saying now, one is not even being offered, so I reject this entire line of argument.
Have you? Like I said you're constantly reframing what I said to make an answer more convenient for you, rather than answering what I already said. I don't see you saying "yes, let us abolish the system where medicine is only available through prescription" you're haggling over details like which drug should be more available to whom - precisely what I said I'm not interested in doing.
As long as you're in favor of there being a system where authority is used as a safeguard for people using medicine, I want that authority to safeguard a segment of the public that is vulnerable, impressionable, and currently neglected.
My talents were never in academic pursuits, so my time is far better spent financially supporting doctors and scientists who are writing papers about, and critiquing the utter state of transgender care. You may have heard of a certain doctor Hillary Cass recently, and like her there are many others. As far as I can tell anyone whoever bothered doing a systemic review of the state of evidence came to a similar conclusion as she did, including a review commissioned by WPATH itself, which they promptly decided to bury.
They can claim what they want, and I can expose their lies. This is my right as a member of the public.
I do not grant that. The child is too impressionable and ignorant to make an informed decision on the subject, and from personal experience, most parents are intimidated to agree by activist doctors, abusing their authority. This is why I am in favor of taking that authority away from them.
Cool, but I'm not worried about myself, or my family. As the saying goes "we live in a society". You just put on a long spiel about how it's completely fine and nothing new for trans advocates to go around changing the culture, including the opinion of judges. This is what I am doing as well, so please do not stand in my way, as you said you won't stand in case of JWs and trans advocates.
I agree. From ovariotomies, lobotomies, apotemnophilia, to giving the human growth hormone to short boys / synthetic estrogen to tall girls in order to "normalize" their height, you're right that scandals like this aren't new, but they are pretty rare, and should be treated as the aberration that they are.
Agree to disagree, I suppose. Especially when it comes to doctors, now that I think about it. They hold a position of trust from the public, so they have an extra duty to make sure their work is done in service of their patients, rather than their sensibilities, or their fanciful ideologies. This is what the WPATH practitioners are in blatant disregard of, they get together at their conferences, and mock the very idea of their approach being wrong, or anyone who brings substantial criticism against them. They refuse debate, and use their political connections to shut down conversations. I don't care if this all comes from "good intentions", the "good intentions" only make the whole thing more horrifying.
Again, nothing I said relies on consequentialism.
This is a fully generalizable argument against anybody deciding anything. If your government and culture provides incentives and pressure to get married and have kids does that mean you can't make an informed decision so every one is abusive? I submit the answer is no. But I point out your argument is basically the one used by strands of feminism, that all marriage is unwilling, that all sex is rape because women exist in a world where men are bigger and stronger and more powerful than them. I reject that that from them and I reject it from you. We are the captain of our own ships. Doctors have no power and authority over parents that those parents themselves do not allow. And I note it also applies to priests and any authority who doesn't have legal authority. Like I say fully generalizable and ends up saying that none of us can actually make our own choices where someone else has some kind of pressure to exert. Which given as you say we exist in a society, is almost everyone.
I reject that premise entirely. You do not have to do what a doctor tells you, you can get a second opinion or a third, you can research yourself. This is not the middle ages. Just as with David Bowie, they have no power over you! Stop denying people their agency.
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