site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 3, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Yes, if a single Jew did. It may not be technically in accord with Catholic theology to think Jews have no need to convert, but in practice non-trad western Catholics will mostly tell Jews that anyways. If a single gentile did this I would think there's a pretty good chance they were a former evangelical who goes to charismatic mass and was convinced in college to believe in the real presence in the Eucharist. In fact one of the vanishingly few American Catholic bishops(David Konderla) to have been appointed without getting on the future bishops shortlist before his ordination to the priesthood managed to become a bishop by being really good at this.

Ashkenazim and Cajuns are probably the most overrepresented ethnicities among tradcaths(hilariously, that makes Shia Labeouf a stereotype), but that doesn't mean a majority of either are. It's probably tail effects from small population sizes on both ends magnifying specific local factors in both cases.

But seriously, there are a lot of not-trad but conservative religious Catholics, ranging from former mainliners who converted over gay marriage to charismatics who are basically evangelicals with the real presence to opus dei to culture wars-y ethnics. And FYI no one converts to happy clappy guitar liberal Catholicism, white or otherwise; it's probably whiter than tradcaths or charismatics for similar 'just so incredibly old' reasons to, say, ELCA Lutherans.

being really good at this.

I’m sorry I don’t follow, really good at what?

FYI no one converts to happy clappy guitar liberal Catholicism, white or otherwise

I’ve known a reasonable number of GenX Filipinos/Hispanics who have tbh, although of course I presume they were raised Catholic so it’s not really ‘conversion’.

I’m sorry I don’t follow, really good at what?

Convincing evangelicals to be charismatic Catholics instead of charismatic protestants.