This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I would argue that this has become less true throughout the industrial revolution.
In ancient times, almost all of the population had to engage in backbreaking agricultural labor, with most of the surplus going to military aristocrats. Today, even minimum wage jobs typically require literacy and are a lot less back-breaking than working the fields.
You can argue that instead of exploiting our own poor, our wealth is built on exploiting the poor of other countries, but I do not think this is substantially correct either. Of course having countries where labor is cheap which produce electronics or textiles increases the wealth of the Western world, but fundamentally there is more to the success of Western countries than just exploiting the Global South.
The job market for shit jobs has some supply elasticity. If unskilled labor costs next to nothing, automation is often not worth it. On the other hand, if unskilled labor is scarce, then using automation is a great way forward. A wagon driver can probably replace ten porters, and a truck driver can replace plenty of wagon drivers.
In medieval cities, you needed to employ a lot of people to shovel all the shit. You need vastly fewer people to run a modern sewer system. OTOH, the job of sanitation janitor is much more complex than simply shoveling shit. Depending on the supply of labor, I would not be surprised if they made actually more than minimum wage in richer countries.
I’m not 100% sure what ‘sanitation janitor’ means, but CNA’s and hazmat guys both make only a mild wage premium over general unskilled labor. These aren’t careers you brag about- they’re crappy working class jobs. Garbagemen, likewise. Janitors, still not making bank.
Plumbers do, but plumbers are skilled professionals whose jobs are not mostly cleaning.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link