site banner
PaperclipPerfector  5mo ago (text post)   26574 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 3, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

"Young people have gotten lazy because of the internet," she said. "They're learning the ways of the white people."

Genuinely hilarious commentary, although I would personally bet quite a bit that they are not, in fact, learning the ways of the white people.

It's the meme version of getting smallpox etc, without either vaccines or any childhood immunity. Western Civilization has great books too, bot it takes quite a lot of education to appreciate it.

I suppose the "white person" version of just naturally absorbing weaving and making attractive books is that my parents were always, every day, talking about what they were reading, reading it out loud, and going on about their favorite books and philosophy professors -- a kind of meme childhood immunization.

An isolated tribe in Brazil probably doesn’t speak enough English to watch black TikTok. Some broken Portuguese, on the other hand, seems plausible, and Brazilian social media probably is dominated by white-looking people due to different racial dynamics in Latin America.

Say more?

Cynically, I expect that the young people in the tribe are learning about TikTok trends and performative nonsense from Western culture, but getting absolutely none of the cultural and personal habits that are the "ways of the white people" that have generated the wealth and success of the Western world. That she believes that learning the ways of the white people leads to laziness suggests that she also doesn't actually know anything about those white cultural habits and is going entirely off of what she sees on the internet and sees the kids developing. In reality, white culture looks a lot like that Smithsonian poster (that was apparently intended to be a critique) - rugged individualism, family structure, future orientation, rigid time schedules with time viewed as a commodity, and hard work as the key to success. I doubt the tribe is learning those values, which is perhaps an indictment of internet culture, but has nothing to do with the ways of the white people.

rugged individualism, family structure, future orientation, rigid time schedules with time viewed as a commodity, and hard work as the key to success

You think white culture is the only culture that has these values?

The Smithsonian's African-American Museum created the brochure. I don't think any of those traits are individually specific to white people, but collectively I think they're a good way of describing the culture of Amerikaners in contrast to other groups that have inhabited the continent.

I can't name any others that has all those features, can you? Certainly not the combination with "rugged individualism"

The idea of “white culture” is a joke on its face. Is a redneck in a lifted F-350 with a fondness for fishing and drinking cheap beer white culture? Or is an over educated millennial white woman who dyes her hair, loves dogs and hates her parents white culture? If both answers are yes, which one is more white?

Also, from the tribal matriarch’s perspective, white people spend all day sitting in chairs and getting fat. She’s not impressed by your brokerage account or your ability to get to work on time.

Yes, those are both white culture. Neither is "more white" anymore than different Asian subcultures are "more Asian". I can find both endearing and dislikeable things about aspects of both of their subcultures, but they do share the relevant traits called out by the Smithsonian poster on the matter. In their own ways, they find success in white cultures and I say good for them.

I can think of few people I'm less interested in impressing than the matriarch of a jungle tribe whose culture is obliterated the moment it comes into contact with the civilized world.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats