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PaperclipPerfector  5mo ago (text post)   28012 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 27, 2024

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I mean, I feel like I'm not the one being confused. The hypo was specifically about Trump, and you said that you were amending your answer to there being no reporting requirement... in context of a hypo specifically about Trump. But this is why I asked, to make sure that you were saying what I thought you should be saying instead of what you actually said.

That's not true.

You said

Hell, we don't actually need to go all the way to Trump doing it. Could again just say that I, a random ass-individual, spent a few hundred dollars on a "Blue Lives Matter" sign (presumably because you picked it out; I don't think I'd ever do that otherwise), but let's immediately forget that parenthetical and assume that I did it because I thought it would implicitly bolster support for Trump and help Trump's election campaign. Reporting requirement? Criminal?

I said

Neither. Not a reporting requirement, not a crime.

You said

Express advocacy has reporting requirements

I acknowledged that you were right, and said

The distinction I was drawing was that I believed unconnected individuals did not face reporting requirements. You've now alerted me that this is not precisely the case, so I amend my answer: Not a reporting requirement nor a crime, because a "Blue Lives Matter" sign does not constitute "express advocacy".

You asked me a hypo about a random individual, I answered about a random individual, I amended my answer in the context of a random individual, and I said so clearly.

Okay, on to the concrete issue.

Do you have any citation from any statute, FEC interpretation, or DOJ manual, that "these types of expenditures" actually meet the definition of "expenditure", as limited by the Supreme Court, and that they then trigger a reporting requirement (where it is a criminal offense to fail to report)?

The FEC website says:

An expenditure is a purchase, payment, distribution, loan, advance, deposit or gift of money or anything of value to influence a federal election. "Disbursement" is a broader term that covers both expenditures and other kinds of payments (those not made to influence a federal election). All disbursements are reportable by the campaign.

We can go to the tape.

Suppose Trump pulls two crisp Benjamins out, which happens to be just enough cash to place a "Blue Lives Matter" sign, not on his own lawn, but on a patch of land that cannot be connected to him, personally. He happens to think that this message will implicitly bolster support among people who are likely to vote for him in addition to just personally believing/liking the message and wanting to support the police. Reporting requirement? Criminal?

I think that's a reporting requirement. I haven't gone into any case law, but a plain reading of the legislation would seem to indicate that any expenditure made for the purpose of influencing the election is a campaign expenditure.

Hell, we don't actually need to go all the way to Trump doing it. Could again just say that I, a random ass-individual, spent a few hundred dollars on a "Blue Lives Matter" sign (presumably because you picked it out; I don't think I'd ever do that otherwise), but let's immediately forget that parenthetical and assume that I did it because I thought it would implicitly bolster support for Trump and help Trump's election campaign. Reporting requirement? Criminal?

Neither. Not a reporting requirement, not a crime.

So, when you said:

I amend my answer: Not a reporting requirement nor a crime, because a "Blue Lives Matter" sign does not constitute "express advocacy".

Were you amending your answer to the Trump hypothetical or the random ass-individual hypothetical? Because if you were amending your answer to the random ass-individual hypothetical, that wouldn't be an amendment. It would be the same answer you originally gave. The natural reading is that you were amending your answer to the Trump hypothetical.

Do you have any citation from any statute, FEC interpretation, or DOJ manual, that "these types of expenditures" actually meet the definition of "expenditure", as limited by the Supreme Court, and that they then trigger a reporting requirement (where it is a criminal offense to fail to report)?

The FEC website says:

An expenditure is a purchase, payment, distribution, loan, advance, deposit or gift of money or anything of value to influence a federal election. "Disbursement" is a broader term that covers both expenditures and other kinds of payments (those not made to influence a federal election). All disbursements are reportable by the campaign.

Wow. Let me specify. "these types of expenditures" means, in the context of the conversation we were having, "a use of personal funds by a candidate that is within the constitutional scope of the definition of 'expenditure'". Like, I didn't think I had to specify this. After all the detail I went into to show how there are these important concerns that aren't captured by the broad definitions you might first encounter, this is basically a non-responsive reply from you. Really just throwing in the towel.

Were you amending your answer to the Trump hypothetical or the random ass-individual hypothetical?

Great question! And a question that was explicitly answered in the two sentences immediately preceding the one you quoted, and bolded in my previous post. Let me capitalize it since bolding was apparently not enough.

The distinction I was drawing was that I believed UNCONNECTED INDIVIDUALS did not face reporting requirements. You've now alerted me that this is not precisely the case, so I amend my answer: Not a reporting requirement nor a crime, because a "Blue Lives Matter" sign does not constitute "express advocacy".

The natural reading is that I was amending the answer I specifically said I was amending.

Wow. Let me specify. "these types of expenditures" means, in the context of the conversation we were having, "a use of personal funds by a candidate that is within the constitutional scope of the definition of 'expenditure'". Like, I didn't think I had to specify this. After all the detail I went into to show how there are these important concerns that aren't captured by the broad definitions you might first encounter, this is basically a non-responsive reply from you. Really just throwing in the towel.

I'm confused. You quoted a handbook that said the general definition of campaign expenditures was what I've been saying it is this whole time. You asked for a FEC interpretation that said that was the correct definition, I provided one. I don't understand what's missing here.

Like, I see that the handbook quote you provided also says that the definition of campaign expenditures has been judicially limited in the context of public communications. But we're talking about a NDA payment, not public communications. So I don't see why that judicial limitation is relevant.

Ok, so not amending. Got it.

And ..sigh. Let me try again. If Trump uses personal funds to buy a "Blue Lives Matter" sign, do you have any citation from any statute, FEC interpretation, or DOJ manual, that "these types of expenditures" (I.e., Blue Lives Matter signs) actually meet the definition of "expenditure", as limited by the Supreme Court, and that they then trigger a reporting requirement (where it is a criminal offense to fail to report)? We'll get to NDAs in a bit.

I mean, I've looked at the FECA text, I've looked at the FEC website, I've listened to some pods, I've looked at the jury instructions, I've read some commentary. That's what I've got. I'm not going to be able to produce anything more than that.

All those things seem to me to answer the question of "what is the law here" in a fairly clear and consistent way. I can be convinced they're all wrong, but at the least you need to be able to tell me what's specifically wrong, and what the right answer is. But as far as I can tell you don't have any alternative formulation, it's just wrong because of the vibe.

Like, say you're the trial judge and you have to write jury instructions. What are you going to tell the jury they need to find to determine if a campaign finance violation has occurred here?

Was this meant to be a reply to this comment instead?

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