site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 27, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

So, take the phrase [paying Stormy Daniels to keep her quiet] and plug it in to [buy a "Blue Lives Matter" sign]. From your amended response, I would believe your position to be that there is not a reporting requirement nor a crime for Donald Trump to pay Stormy Daniels. (I am not at the current moment taking any position on what I think is the objectively correct interpretation of the statute/FEC interpretations; I am just trying to make sure I'm actually just reading what you wrote correctly and that we're on the same page for what your claims are.) Is that your position?

No. I'm still seeing a distinction between the candidate and people coordinating with the candidate versus unconnected individuals. The "express advocacy" rule seems to apply to unconnected individuals, while the "anything done to affect the election" rule seems to apply to the candidate. So if you, a person with (I presume) no connection to Trump were to pay Daniels to keep quiet, that would not be express advocacy, so you're all clear. Whereas if Trump or someone acting on his behalf (like Cohen) does it, it triggers a reporting requirement (and additionally is subject to contribution limits if the payment does not come directly from Trump himself).

I understand the principle that case law amends how things operate in ways that might not be clear from the text of the statute, and I'm not pretending to be intimately familiar with the body of case law on this topic, but I also think that if you can't point to a specific rule or precedent that's been adopted by the courts previously, it's a bit of a stretch to say the NY court got this case wrong. Like maybe on appeal some higher court finds that yeah, the way we've been applying election finance law has some constitutional issues so we're going to set out a new standard and that means this conviction gets voided. But the trial court's job isn't really to deal with those issues, it's to apply the law as it is currently understood. And as far as I can tell, they did that.

I'm also highly sceptical that there is in fact any relevant first amendment issue that affects this case. Possibly the way things are currently drawn might present some sort of issue in some other hypothetical situation. But in this specific instance, I cannot see how being required to disclose an NDA payment as a campaign expenditure is a limitation on freedom of speech. It's not stopping Trump from saying anything - the only issue I could possibly imagine is the question of whether NDAs are enforceable in the first place (as they involve creating a legal penalty for engaging in certain types of speech), but even that doesn't affect any of the matters at issue here.

As an aside, IIRC, you're an Aussie, and one would think that you'd have some understanding and respect for why the concept of secrecy might be useful in various ways in the context of democratic elections.

Sure. The point of a secret ballot is so people can't effectively threaten or bribe you to vote a certain way. What's the relevance of that?

the only issue I could possibly imagine is the question of whether NDAs are enforceable in the first place (as they involve creating a legal penalty for engaging in certain types of speech)

As I understand it, an NDA is a voluntary contract between two parties, trading one party’s things of value for the other’s agreement not to say a certain set of things. That means breach of contract (disclosing the thing and not paying the penalty listed in the contract) falls under civil suit law, with penalties being restricted to the monetary and enforceable by public judges.

the "anything done to affect the election" rule seems to apply to the candidate.

Ok, so back to the "Blue Lives Matter" sign that Trump put up with his own money. Are you amending your answer back to saying that there is a reporting requirement? Is it criminal if he doesn't report?

I think you've gotten confused. I don't need to "amend my answer back", I've been consistent that candidates face reporting requirements for these types of expenditures. Read back our exchanges while bearing in mind the distinction between candidates and unconnected individuals and you'll see that (even though I did err initially in thinking there was no reporting burden on unconnected individuals rather than a lower burden).

So, yes. There's a reporting requirement, and he violates FECA if he doesn't report it.

I mean, I feel like I'm not the one being confused. The hypo was specifically about Trump, and you said that you were amending your answer to there being no reporting requirement... in context of a hypo specifically about Trump. But this is why I asked, to make sure that you were saying what I thought you should be saying instead of what you actually said.

In any event, we can move on to seeing if your position seems to hold. There are a couple relevant portions of the code. You cited §30116(7)(B)(i), which is where there is the route to convert "expenditures" into "contributions". §30101(9) has the definition of "expenditure". The manual for federal prosecution of election offenses has this to say about the definition of "expenditures":

“expenditure” – in general, any purchase, payment, or anything else having pecuniary value that is made for the purpose of influencing the nomination or election of a federal candidate. § 30101(9). In the context of public communications, the definition has been judicially limited to disbursements for communications that contain “magic words of express advocacy,” such as “elect,” “defeat,” or “vote for,” or that otherwise clearly call for elective action for or against a clearly identified federal candidate. Fed. Election Comm’n v. Mass. Citizens for Life, Inc., 479 U.S. 238, 247–249 (1986); Buckley v. Valeo, 424 U.S. 1, 44 n.52 (1976).

Clearly, they are seeing that there are significant Constitutional limits placed on the very definition of an expenditure. These limits are prior to the question of whether an expenditure can be converted into a contribution, because they cut at the question of whether something is even an expenditure in the first place. They don't seem to be saying that there is some separate route for a candidate's personal spending to be an "expenditure" which could be converted into a "contribution". Why wouldn't such an attempt run squarely into the same considerations in Buckley? I don't believe Buckley said, "Expenditures are limited to express advocacy, unless it's a candidate's personal funds, in which case they're not so limited." They just said, "Expenditures are limited to express advocacy."

candidates face reporting requirements for these types of expenditures

Do you have any citation from any statute, FEC interpretation, or DOJ manual, that "these types of expenditures" actually meet the definition of "expenditure", as limited by the Supreme Court, and that they then trigger a reporting requirement (where it is a criminal offense to fail to report)?

I mean, I feel like I'm not the one being confused. The hypo was specifically about Trump, and you said that you were amending your answer to there being no reporting requirement... in context of a hypo specifically about Trump. But this is why I asked, to make sure that you were saying what I thought you should be saying instead of what you actually said.

That's not true.

You said

Hell, we don't actually need to go all the way to Trump doing it. Could again just say that I, a random ass-individual, spent a few hundred dollars on a "Blue Lives Matter" sign (presumably because you picked it out; I don't think I'd ever do that otherwise), but let's immediately forget that parenthetical and assume that I did it because I thought it would implicitly bolster support for Trump and help Trump's election campaign. Reporting requirement? Criminal?

I said

Neither. Not a reporting requirement, not a crime.

You said

Express advocacy has reporting requirements

I acknowledged that you were right, and said

The distinction I was drawing was that I believed unconnected individuals did not face reporting requirements. You've now alerted me that this is not precisely the case, so I amend my answer: Not a reporting requirement nor a crime, because a "Blue Lives Matter" sign does not constitute "express advocacy".

You asked me a hypo about a random individual, I answered about a random individual, I amended my answer in the context of a random individual, and I said so clearly.

Okay, on to the concrete issue.

Do you have any citation from any statute, FEC interpretation, or DOJ manual, that "these types of expenditures" actually meet the definition of "expenditure", as limited by the Supreme Court, and that they then trigger a reporting requirement (where it is a criminal offense to fail to report)?

The FEC website says:

An expenditure is a purchase, payment, distribution, loan, advance, deposit or gift of money or anything of value to influence a federal election. "Disbursement" is a broader term that covers both expenditures and other kinds of payments (those not made to influence a federal election). All disbursements are reportable by the campaign.

We can go to the tape.

Suppose Trump pulls two crisp Benjamins out, which happens to be just enough cash to place a "Blue Lives Matter" sign, not on his own lawn, but on a patch of land that cannot be connected to him, personally. He happens to think that this message will implicitly bolster support among people who are likely to vote for him in addition to just personally believing/liking the message and wanting to support the police. Reporting requirement? Criminal?

I think that's a reporting requirement. I haven't gone into any case law, but a plain reading of the legislation would seem to indicate that any expenditure made for the purpose of influencing the election is a campaign expenditure.

Hell, we don't actually need to go all the way to Trump doing it. Could again just say that I, a random ass-individual, spent a few hundred dollars on a "Blue Lives Matter" sign (presumably because you picked it out; I don't think I'd ever do that otherwise), but let's immediately forget that parenthetical and assume that I did it because I thought it would implicitly bolster support for Trump and help Trump's election campaign. Reporting requirement? Criminal?

Neither. Not a reporting requirement, not a crime.

So, when you said:

I amend my answer: Not a reporting requirement nor a crime, because a "Blue Lives Matter" sign does not constitute "express advocacy".

Were you amending your answer to the Trump hypothetical or the random ass-individual hypothetical? Because if you were amending your answer to the random ass-individual hypothetical, that wouldn't be an amendment. It would be the same answer you originally gave. The natural reading is that you were amending your answer to the Trump hypothetical.

Do you have any citation from any statute, FEC interpretation, or DOJ manual, that "these types of expenditures" actually meet the definition of "expenditure", as limited by the Supreme Court, and that they then trigger a reporting requirement (where it is a criminal offense to fail to report)?

The FEC website says:

An expenditure is a purchase, payment, distribution, loan, advance, deposit or gift of money or anything of value to influence a federal election. "Disbursement" is a broader term that covers both expenditures and other kinds of payments (those not made to influence a federal election). All disbursements are reportable by the campaign.

Wow. Let me specify. "these types of expenditures" means, in the context of the conversation we were having, "a use of personal funds by a candidate that is within the constitutional scope of the definition of 'expenditure'". Like, I didn't think I had to specify this. After all the detail I went into to show how there are these important concerns that aren't captured by the broad definitions you might first encounter, this is basically a non-responsive reply from you. Really just throwing in the towel.

Were you amending your answer to the Trump hypothetical or the random ass-individual hypothetical?

Great question! And a question that was explicitly answered in the two sentences immediately preceding the one you quoted, and bolded in my previous post. Let me capitalize it since bolding was apparently not enough.

The distinction I was drawing was that I believed UNCONNECTED INDIVIDUALS did not face reporting requirements. You've now alerted me that this is not precisely the case, so I amend my answer: Not a reporting requirement nor a crime, because a "Blue Lives Matter" sign does not constitute "express advocacy".

The natural reading is that I was amending the answer I specifically said I was amending.

Wow. Let me specify. "these types of expenditures" means, in the context of the conversation we were having, "a use of personal funds by a candidate that is within the constitutional scope of the definition of 'expenditure'". Like, I didn't think I had to specify this. After all the detail I went into to show how there are these important concerns that aren't captured by the broad definitions you might first encounter, this is basically a non-responsive reply from you. Really just throwing in the towel.

I'm confused. You quoted a handbook that said the general definition of campaign expenditures was what I've been saying it is this whole time. You asked for a FEC interpretation that said that was the correct definition, I provided one. I don't understand what's missing here.

Like, I see that the handbook quote you provided also says that the definition of campaign expenditures has been judicially limited in the context of public communications. But we're talking about a NDA payment, not public communications. So I don't see why that judicial limitation is relevant.

Ok, so not amending. Got it.

And ..sigh. Let me try again. If Trump uses personal funds to buy a "Blue Lives Matter" sign, do you have any citation from any statute, FEC interpretation, or DOJ manual, that "these types of expenditures" (I.e., Blue Lives Matter signs) actually meet the definition of "expenditure", as limited by the Supreme Court, and that they then trigger a reporting requirement (where it is a criminal offense to fail to report)? We'll get to NDAs in a bit.

I mean, I've looked at the FECA text, I've looked at the FEC website, I've listened to some pods, I've looked at the jury instructions, I've read some commentary. That's what I've got. I'm not going to be able to produce anything more than that.

All those things seem to me to answer the question of "what is the law here" in a fairly clear and consistent way. I can be convinced they're all wrong, but at the least you need to be able to tell me what's specifically wrong, and what the right answer is. But as far as I can tell you don't have any alternative formulation, it's just wrong because of the vibe.

Like, say you're the trial judge and you have to write jury instructions. What are you going to tell the jury they need to find to determine if a campaign finance violation has occurred here?

More comments