This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Something I don't mention enough that might help contextualize the difficulty is this - one patient is not hard in most specialities. If you are a hospitalist caring for one admission that's pretty easy. I'd even hazard that a bright person with some epistemic humility, ChatGPT, UpToDate, and a low-moderate complexity patient could manage it.
You don't have one patient.
You might have 20. You might have 30. Two of them are actively dying on you. You have to juggle those responsibilities while trying to discharge five people on your census who are supposed to go home and 5 new admits you know nothing about. All while nursing, case management, utilization, and the billing department are trying to call you. Every day. Maybe it's a weekend and you've worked 14 days in a row. Maybe it's hour 28 of what's supposed to be a 24 hour shift. And you still have to write all your notes from yesterday.
Yeah being really smart will help you save one of your dying patients by coming up with something clever, help you diagnosis something incidental in one of your random patients, and help you spot that your healthy seeming afib patient is a bomb waiting to go off....but more importantly it gives you the intellectual reserve to handle the volume without letting things slide.
That's the biggest difference I see between the smarter and dumber doctors. Dr. House isn't required, but having the reserve to not be overwhelmed is.
I'm ever more grateful thay a quick poke with haloperidol and lorazepam solves most of my "emergencies".
Ah, truly the specialty for me.
Unsolicited teaching time!!!!!!
I know your comment is meant somewhat facetiously but it's important to establish good PRN habits early, especially as you move to a higher resource community.
Some pearls.
Haldol/Ativan/Benadryl (B-52! If you've never heard the term) works well and is popular for a damn good reason. It's fine as a default.
Other PRNs exist however and you should be familiar with them and try and think about when to use them. Droperidol is big in the ED in the U.S. Thorazine is more popular as a pediatric PRN because it's thought to be more sedating.
If the patient is on something that seems to be working (like say Zyprexa) you can consider using more of that for breakthrough agitation. Do not mix IM Zyprexa with benzos however.
If you ever work in a consult setting or otherwise with medically ill patients you'll want to have a few tricks. QT related concerns are big in the U.S. even if they are questionably real so you have a lot of elderly dementia/delirium patients who need clever agitation management - low dose depakote can work for this.
Know what's happening with the patient. Patient like the above will generate requests from idiotic physicians for benzodiazepines recs. Obviously that makes delirium worse. I believe all doctors who deal with agitated patients (read: basically all doctors) need a full length version of this rant for that reason. Less common problem (especially outside your field) are pure "behavioral" patients. If the agitation is all volitional antipsychotics aren't going to do shit.....choose more sedating regimens (but be aware of the risks of such).
Unrelated question to check reading comprehension (this is a joke). Do they use hospital prescribed alcohol to manage withdrawal in India? It's so stupidly effective and simple and I don't know why we don't do it more anymore.
Go assess the patient (skip if the bandwidth isn't there, admittedly). Nursing and ancillary staff are seldom reliable narrators for if a patient needs meds. Bonus points if you can learn which staff and teams are reliable for this. Sometimes you can save everyone trouble by throwing a pissed off person a sandwich. Also be aware of the risks of sedating someone you need to interview or examine later, can easily cause downstream workflow problems especially if it's a hospital setting and you are pulling in consultants.
I'm not that lazy so I asked GPT-4:
A senior doctor likely provided this advice based on several important considerations regarding the safety and effectiveness of treating acute agitation in patients with psychosis:
Effectiveness of Current Medication:
Drug Interactions:
Safety Concerns with IM Administration:
Clinical Guidelines and Best Practices:
Minimizing Polypharmacy:
In summary, the senior doctor's advice is grounded in clinical safety, evidence-based practice, and the principle of minimizing harm while effectively managing acute agitation. By using more of a medication that is already working, like Zyprexa (olanzapine), and avoiding the combination of IM olanzapine with benzodiazepines, the approach aims to optimize patient outcomes while reducing the risk of serious adverse effects.
I suppose that's the gist of it?
More options
Context Copy link
It's a good thing I took my Ritalin and have a psych textbook open, or I'd have permabanned for the aggressive attack with education at a vulnerable juncture /s
Thank you, while you Americans have an abominable addiction to brand names, I can understand that those are principles that'll come in handy.
I can Google that, but you're in a teaching mood, so might I know why from the horse's mouth?
Never seen it happen, and I've been here longer than I'd like. It's the usual benzos to cover the acute withdrawal, and it matches up with NICE guidance to boot.
Good stuff. I'm taking notes, albeit with the cafeteria being the way it is in the NHS, I might be tempted to steal the sandwich. Certainly not paying for one out of pocket, do I look like I make US money haha. I do prefer practical and common sense interventions where possible, Scott's story about the lady with OCD and hairdryer stuck with me.
More from hanging out in /r/drugs to watch in sheer awe at the people who choose to abuse deliriants, in the case of Benadryl, but Haldol? That's good old haloperidol and I love it like me mum.
Excellent! Using the knowledge we just discussed, which PRNs would you administer to yourself for that aggression???
-Lowkey I use the generic vs. brand name basically based off what's easier/quicker to spell.
-B-52 is the medical slang for that PRN regimen, don't see people abusing it (if that's what you meant by that comment).
-Medical beer works great! We need to bring it back.
-In the U.S. we have sandwiches on deck for just this reason.
I see your other reply with chatbot Charlie but I'll ignore it because why more word when less word good.
On paper you have a risk of increased adversed events (most notably respiratory depression) when those two agents are mingled.
What ChatGPT won't tell you is that is likely not real and just a recommendation generated by an abundance of caution. Origin was probably adverse events in people with comorbid substance use, including alcohol.
Haloperidol 😌
Then again, maybe I have PTSD from exams, and therapy (CBT, if memory serves) is first line in the UK.
Ah, the innocence. While I'm more familiar with the bomber aircraft with that designation, you really need to visit /r/drugs, sort by top all time, and just see the RIDICULOUS things people do with or on benadryl. Who thought people could get addicted to a bad time?
Especially for us doctors. Sadly, the glory days of the NHS when doctors smoked cigars in their chambers and they had a bar in the doctor's mess were over before I was born.
Hmm.. A lack of evidence based practice? In medicine? Never imagined that was a thing.
I'd be rather surprised to see respiratory depression on that combination, unless they were the kind more fit for the ICU, but I'm just a baby doctor and I'm here to learn.
Oh yeah Benadryl use? Absolutely, with Haldol? That I haven't seen. You see a lot of Benadryl abuse in a correctional setting in the U.S. And really abuse of anything. Apparently Oxybutynin is popular in the women's prisons. And licking pesticides off the walls is popular whenever the prison successfully cracks down on drug imports. If it's at all anticholinergic life, uh finds a way.
Zyprexa is decently sedating. Benzos are sedating. That's probably it. You get a bad outcome and then it generates a black box warning or whatever and we get stuck with it (see: SSRIs increasing suicide risk).
While I usually like to complain about the lack of EBM in this case it's probably just defensive medicine. Be curious to see if they teach it in the U.K. which obviously has a different regulatory environment.
I expect it's somewhat less litigious than the US, though of course it still keeps people up at night.
I've read that the SSRI and increased suicide risk is a real phenomenon, when they start working enough to overcome the lethargy and apathy, which lets users finally find the energy to apply those lovely suicidal thoughts lurking in their heads. Not that I've seen that stop anyone prescribing them, there's nothing better for the majority. Maybe jump to ECT if the depression is severe enough/psychotic?
Check it out. Totally is a debate as to if it's real or not (although the FDA and mainstream thought leans on yes with qualification) HOWEVER, IIRC it's just for Peds (so the common apathy narrative is less applicable), it seems small, and it's just a risk for SI not completion.
Standard of care is still to counsel for everybody just in case.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
This seems kinda backwards from an organizational perspective. Being a doctor requires that you be really smart because they're all really busy because there aren't enough doctors, so we can only admit really smart candidates to medical school.
Wouldn't lowering standards and increasing the number of doctors improve things significantly if that's the argument?
I've argued in the past that it's helpful for doctors to be intelligent and here I present an example that comes from a little bit of a different direction than usual, but most of the selection criteria are more about diligence, toughness, and hard work, all of which is best preserved.
However, even if you take case numbers down to say 15 inpatients for a hospitalist you still need a lot of those skills if you get a couple of rough admits at once.
You'll find most doctors (myself included) want more doctors, but the tone of this discussion online is always "wow doctors are useless and overpaid, let's just create more from the aether and dump their salaries which will solve healthcare costs" which is not how any of this works.
I rarely see people online weighing in who actually understand healthcare economics or seem to understand and respect what doctors actually do.
More options
Context Copy link
Yes! Except people always want the best doctors, so you need a way to gatekeep access to the top of the crop, either by making them more expensive to the consumer or by mandating you have to see Dr. Washington or Dr. Lopez before you're allowed to see Dr. Swami or Dr. Smith before you are allowed to see Dr. Wang or Dr. Leibowitz.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link