mixpap
1mo ago
Talking about European leaders being morons while you have a dummy like trump as a president is top comedy.
mixpap
1mo ago
They believe that because they are unaware of how many things this coupling offers the US, they same way they believe a lot of inaccurate things . You are right their perspective is flawed , because their supremacy is also a result of their control over Europe.
mixpap
1mo ago
Any discussion is moot. The other side won't hear it , they are ideological fanatics pushed to the brink by the propaganda of an enemy state. The truth doesn't matter anymore , the only thing they understand is consequences. Close down NATO bases in europe , completely decouple from the US MIC , dissolve NATO and create a tight alliance with european states and arm up for the coming WW3. Force them to either accept that their insanity has a cost or to make a move so dumb that makes them pariahs ( like invading canada ). If you bow down now they will keep going and will just leave us in the dust the moment putin is ready to go after the baltics anyway.
mixpap
1mo ago
Again, are you American? Could you hold trump accountable even for a second for being a pathetic putin fan ? The whole thing was planned. You don't bring an ally that has been in a 3 year war to protect your interests as well and treat him like that. Can you guys not see that?
mixpap
1mo ago
Again , what a problematic analysis. The only children in this situation is the fools you guys voted to the white house. They need you to protect them from Russia but haven't really said anything about actually protecting them? You are just demanding the minerals. The only thing pushing us closer to WW3 is Putin's lapdog that will allow him to go for the baltics next. When everything you are saying is a copy paste of Russian propaganda maybe you should really take a breather and think through whether your news sources are corrupted.
mixpap
1mo ago
So you guys would all be ok with being embarassed and talked down on by two bufoons talking nonsense? And you think Zelensky should have just stayed quiet or else he has a plan to force the Europeans to back Ukraine? Maybe he is just a serious guy that has a limit on how much nonsense he can take? I certainly couldn't take the nonsense those two clowns spewed for too long.
mixpap
1mo ago
Option C can't happen with Trump on the negotiation table. He is not objective and he dislikes European leaders and drools over Putin. No serious and fair negotiation can happen unless he either changes direction or fucks off and let's Europe negotiate.
mixpap
1mo ago
Really? Keep his pride contained? Maybe Trump can stop being putin's little bitch for more then a minute? They brought him there to embarass him and talk down to him. In any case their involvement in the deal does nothing for Ukraine since they were basically willing to do whatever putin asked. Better for everyone for them to stay uninvolved.
Watching the disastrous discussion between Zelensky Trump and Vance I wonder how you guys here feel? The whole thing made me nauseous , treating an ally like that is disgusting , unpresidential and certainly geopolitcally inept. The EU-US relationship is not salvagable and at this point I would clap if US bases were emptied and NATO dissolved. Decouple the EU from the US as fast as possible and be independent. There is no way to talk sense into lunatics like Trump and Vance and Putin's control over them somehow seems to be absolute. What an absolute disaster. I know that there will be differing opinions here but at least most of you must agree that this is too much, or not , maybe Russian propaganda really has you convinced that Ukrainians are stealing money and started the war or some nonsense.
mixpap
1mo ago
I have been following the war since 2014, so no the 'alternative' hypothesis is not correct and it's funny to me that 3 years later these things are still being said. Trump is not a serious guy , I get why that's controversial but it's simply the truth. Also something I noticed just now , you say ' the US's pivotal role in starting the Ukraine conflict ' well if that were the case then it's not Ukraine that started it right? It's Ukraine doing the US's bidding. So Trump is chastising your ally for doing your bidding? In any case it's all moot , the Russians have done a masterpiece in propaganda , kudos to them honestly.
mixpap
1mo ago
What are you talking about? Who wants the destruction of your society and your values? Do you spend too much time on reddit? Europeans would love to visit the US and shoot guns and shit , even the left-wingers . I believe that these statements you make come in direct contradiction to your statement ' we are not helpless in the face of foreign propaganda ' , the literal russian playbook is sowing discord , confusion and making us enemies and it seems to me that it's working, if not on you at least on a lot of MAGA Americans. The issues you have with the European left-wingers are the same issues European conservatives have with them , the same exact way I dislike the American left, so what exactly is the problem? If anything the problems are internal for each of us. I guess you can make the case that Europe is more left-leaning etc but so what? You want to give up on the entire continent over what exactly? The Danish fought in afghanistan for you and your dummy of a president just keeps on going at them and here you are speaking over tribes and value theories. In fact the whole Ukraine thing can certainly be blamed on you since you are the NATO member that decides on policy and now after setting the chess board you want to remove the queen and leave the pawns to get fucked?
In any case all of these morality talk is unnecessary. The US holds the role of global hegemon in part because of it's influence over Europe, alienating us and losing that is not only morally wrong but most certainly also bad geopolitics. That's the issue , your president making bad decisions one after the other and bowing down to Putin , not whether my feelings are hurt.
mixpap
1mo ago
First of all I completely agree, I hate the current European culture of naive pacifism and hyper-leftist tendencies. In my mind the situation is unsalvageable but anyway. What I believe you are missing though is that the US is not doing anything out of it's good heart , instead it's influence and protection over the continent is a big part of why it's still the global hegemon. Giving that up is not a result of ' you dummies fend for yourselves I am done paying ' but more the result of bad policy and a senile president whose understanding is clouded by Russian propaganda. In fact there is an interesting book by Alexander Dugin that talks about how it should be a Russian plan to disentangle Europe from the US by destabilization and sabotage etc. In fact it's not just a book but something of a manual to the Russian geopolitic influencers. Other then that even though I agree with you in principle I believe no European would like to see the eastern front repeat in the 21st century , well a US-EU breakup brings that infinetly closer in my opinion.
mixpap
1mo ago
To me normalizing the defeatist attitude you espouse is more problematic for NATO. Are you suggesting that the west/NATO can never again win a conventional war? Because whether it is the Iranians , the Russians or the Chinese they will always hold the nuclear stick over our head. What happens if the Russians invade NATO territory in a couple of years? Are we allowed to take back anything they take ? Or will they call it Russian and hold nuclear war as the ultimate card. Do you agree that at some point , if it comes to it, people in Dallas or Manchester WILL have to risk being incinerated over towns nobody can even name? Maybe these towns will not be in donetsk ok let's agree to that but certainly at some point you have to draw a line and risk getting nuked , correct? I hope you see the issue , the dichotomy of strategy A and B you mentioned will exist whether its NATO territory or not, it's just that I assume when it comes to NATO territory you will be ok with the risk? If your answer is no then I hope you are ready to always be bullied by autocrats and their absolute control over the population.
When it comes to Ukraine, the only thing I said is that we should have given them more from the start instead of half-assing it. If we had done that I believe they would have been fully more capable in destroying Russian forces during the early counteroffensives instead of stalling out and letting the Russians off to fight another day. At that point I seriously doubt Putin would have nuked ukrainian forces , let alone ukrainian civilians and certainly no way he nukes western capitals over a conventional loss by his actual enemy. If he did actually nuke (tactically , the other two situations I consider almost impossible ) them I believe even the Chinese would have been on his ass to end it. But in any case it would have been moot , nukes as I said are strategic weapons and offer no real tactical advantages so no point using them as a result of a conventional loss. The ground you lost is still lost and your army no more capable then before. You just made yourself an international pariah.
mixpap
1mo ago
When did I say that Putin is a bloodthirsty thug? I think you are projecting someone else's opinions on me. Whatever else he may be he certainly is an enemy of NATO , and at the same time I think he is a relatively rational actor. RELATIVELY. I never said he is scared , I said that I doubt he will nuke kiev as a result of losing conventionally inside Ukraine. In fact if you disagree with this then its you saying he is a bloodthirsty thug that would murder millions over bitterness. Maybe he will use tactical nukes but tactical nukes won't really do much , nukes are a strategic weapon and I doubt he will nuke Kiev over his army getting routed. The 'days drive from Moscow' is inconsequential , it's not the 40s anymore , we can track enemies in real time and just like in kursk today , it would be clear to him whether Ukrainian formations have stopped at the border for example , or if they are heading for moscow.
mixpap
1mo ago
I am Greek by the way, I hope your optimism is not misplaced , it will certainly not be easy.
Why not become useful and go get turned into pink mist by a Ukrainian FPV? At least then your leader will get his money's worth out of you.
mixpap
1mo ago
Not sure I understand , are you European or are you referring to me being European? Whatever the case may be , Europe is not ready to defend itself and if we are abandoned by the Americans we will suffer very very badly in a war we might not even win. Forget our militaries , we are culturally unable to actually fight , and the Russian propaganda machine will have a field day destroying our democracies.
mixpap
1mo ago
Spare me your irony ,you got any actual arguments other than twisting my words? You think Putin would go nuclear over a conventional loss in Ukraine? Ukrainian soldiers have captured Russian villages for months and they are still there , and you think he would use nukes ( even tactically) because the Ukrainians won inside Ukraine? I highly doubt it, and if you are ready to be bullied on a MIGHT then you might as well disolve NATO right now and go home.
mixpap
1mo ago
I have reiiterared my opinion on the issue I believe a couple of times. Both sides (biden and trump) are equally bad but for different reasons. 'Zelensky blew past several red lines ' like which? The only red lines he blew past , way too late in my opinion , were red lines that shouldn't have existed in the first place. The Biden admin was a weak admin headed by a bunch of peace loving staffers that had no idea what it takes to prosecute and ultimately win a war , they drip fed Ukraine and as a result we have the mess we have now. In regards to what you said , not drip feeding Ukraine is exactly what we should have done. Give them everything they need to shatter the russian force in Ukraine early in the war at the kharkiv counteroffensive and if Putin doesn't take the L and decides to go nuclear ( which he probably won't) , then you implement a no fly zone over Ukraine and merk everything with a Z on it. Sounds too risky? Well then I guess you can take half measures but don't be surprised when it backfires.
On the other side let's not fool ourselves that Trump is a man of logic and red lines. He is an impulsive guy with a bully mindset, sometimes if channeled correctly it can work , sometimes it won't. In this case it's backfiring since the man has clearly been corrupted by russian disinformation operations and so the bullying is focused on Ukraine. What does the war being unwinnable mean to you? Do you mean for the Russians? Because sure , the Russians unless we remove all assistance will literally never get exactly what they wanted and by default we win. Ukraine gets to live and fight another day so again that seems like a victory to me. The fact that Russian propaganda has convinced even you that the war is somehow unwinnable is maddening, this line of thinking is so problematic. Hearing ' to the last ukrainian ' and 'poor ukrainians are dying' from the people whose biggest celebration is their fanatical resistance to nazi germany and who today are getting slaughtered in the thousands for meters of empty land is absolutely wild.
I do have a couple of ideas on what the current best avenue of approach would be for NATO in Ukraine , but that would take too much writing and be speculation. What I am certain of is that Trump's position and rhetoric ensures that Ukraine gets fucked and that russia gets a blank check to do it again and unless he stays in power and goes full isolationist the next goverment will have to decide whether Estonia , Poland or Taiwan is worth dying over, because the message you give will be clear " Pump the air full of propaganda , and you can take whatever ".
When did Zelensky ask for 'every weapon' under the sun? He clearly didn't, so what exactly do you mean? He is asking for what makes sense, the US and EU to assist in defeating or at least deterring Russia. If you ask me why that makes sense it would indicate a lack in your geopolitical knowledge and it would induce me to ask why you think you are capable of taking a position on this if you can't understand something as simple as that? Bullshitting and 'trolling' your ally and the person whose side you are supposed to represent in negotiations while supporting the other side's propaganda is the most insane thing you could say to support the lunatic's ramblings. Your last paragraph again indicates your lack of understanding of the greater picture. Would you be ok with Trump disentangling from NATO if the Russians decide to attempt to get a chunk of estonia? Because this is where this is heading when your own president is parroting enemy propaganda verbatim. I am sure you are also trying to explain away the guy's ramblings on Greenland and Canada. You guys elected a dummy that watches too much nonsense on twitter and you will say anything other than " oh shit we fucked up"..
mixpap
1mo ago
Trump is not a very smart guy and we know for a fact he is a twitter addict. The simplest answer is therefore the correct one , like Zelensky said , Trump has been captured by Russian propaganda. Probably as a result of who he talks to and what he watches. Watch how he pivots away from all former allies and befriends authoritarians like Putin and Xi. If any of you guys are European like me , better start running , digging and practicing how to dogde FPV's.
mixpap
2mo ago
Let me ask you this. What do you think is the bedrock of liberalism? My ability to listen to you AND take your opinion seriously. The problem that appears as the tip of the iceberg clearly is that the various sides are so polarized they seem unable to cooperate. I am letting you speak (probably) , I just can't discuss with you and reach a consensus (take your opinion seriously).The problem is that the act of discussing and reaching a consensus is impossible if I am viscerally convinced I am right. This is going to sound simplistic but let's start from there. How can i be convinced to discuss if I know I am right? Especially if it's clear to me that you are my ideological enemy. Straight up the fault lies on the internet and the massive increase in propaganda and opinion-building that is happening through social media. A constant stream of info curated to your already held opinions , no matter how fanatic , and you have nazi levels of propaganda 24/7 in your screen.
mixpap
2mo ago
I will copy paste some parts of my response to SS. ''Israel and the US are allies , the fact that you don't understand how that alliance is expressed and why it's expressed this way is a result of your lack of geopolitical knowledge. Not trying to offend you or anything but you should read more on this''. More specifically to what you are saying , you are incorrect in a number of points . Your first mistake is assuming that alliances mean i fight your wars or contribute to your war chest. This is not a correct, there are other ways for an alliance to be expressed ,especially in the modern world (intelligence , technology , trade etc, cultural similarities). Israel is very technologically innovative and is very culturally similar to the west , and I will follow up in just a second on how important this cultural similarity is so don't dismiss it. Your main mistake is assuming that Israel doesn't fight the US's wars, you are incorrect. The soviet union lost massive influence in the middle east after the Israeli victory in yom kippur , this is one such example. The thing is that the cultural similarity I mentioned before is really important to an actual alliance because it comes down to what people really value. You can't really trust that the geopolitcal interest of fanatical islamists ( who are not a minority in most arab states) will align with yours when it matters, you can't trust that they will inform you of terrorist attacks or be actual allies in whatever conflict you are in. But the truth is you can trust Israel because cultural similarities dictate that when you are fighting they are 'fighting' ( always meaning locally , not referring to a conflict in the pacific for example) when you were fighting Sadam (both times) the Israelis were very happy it was happening and were literally not fighting with you because you asked them not to fight so as not to inflame tensions in the arab world. Iran hates the US and hates Israel , and the Israelis would gladly bomb them , like they did hezbollah who again is an enemy of both the US and Israel. There are a thousand more things I can say but you must disentangle from this idea that being an ally means fighting a war with you, Saudi arabia fought in the first gulf war but the US should never consider them a serious and trusting ally. That may sound a little naive to you but its the truth , alliances are also about cultural similarities which by themselves create an actual almost humanalike relatioship. It is not only cold geopolitical interest that dictates them and you would be very very wrong to think so, in the midst of such differing cultures Israel is a natural US ally whose interests converge with the western entities by default.
More specifically in regards to the pager. Well like I said, hezbollah has shed so much American blood that the instrument of their defeat seems like a valid present.
You don't protect American interest's by giving Ukraine to Putin. And you certainly don't protect american interest's by scolding allies that are fighting your enemy for 3 years live on camera. What that does is show to the world that you are unserious and not to be trusted. Pretty simple.
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