fribble
1mo ago
No, what I wear is clothing. Your interpretation is your problem. Your behavior is yours to control.
You can be sexually stimulated without acting on it (physically or vocally).
fribble
1mo ago
It's generally not actually stated in those stark terms, these days. People try to avoid being seen to blame the victim. But the subtext is definitely still there more often than it should be.
One of my husband's acquaintances is That Guy. The guy who says he can't help but leer at women on the beach, because of what they're wearing (actually on the beach). Not notice and keep it in mind for later thinking or whatever over, but rudely staring in a creepy way. Who'll defend his behavior, because she's wearing a two piece, or is particularly well endowed, or whatever excuse to make his behavior absolutely outside of his control, because of her.
Every single woman I know has been told, more than once, to change what she's wearing because it'll send the wrong message. Which is goofy, because we also know we're going to get catcalled/propositioned/groped wearing a hoodie and jeans, so damned if you do, damned if you don't.
fribble
1mo ago
Men used to wear ties when out and about, just like women used to wear skirts and hose. It wasn't just for presumably formal occasions like a wedding.
fribble
1mo ago
I think there's a decent argument that while not wearing a tie is declining formality, forgoing an undershirt is forgoing modesty.
fribble
1mo ago
In the past 5+ years, I've never had a conversation about fashion expectations with a woman where she expressed frustration towards modesty standards (either too much or too little).
I may be misunderstanding you; let me know if I am. I don't know a women who isn't frustrated with the clothing available, and it's not all about pockets. I cannot easily find a shirt that isn't too low cut / designed to expose more of my chest than I typically prefer. Tshirts or fairly masculine tailored button downs are pretty much the only shirts I can depend on to meet my preferences. And hemlines are incredibly short. I can either go with long-and-flowy don't show an inch of skin, which tends to be too frilly and feminine for my preferences, or "this is so short it may not be long enough to cover my backside when sitting down" which is ridiculous. Apparently, wanting fabric to extend to my knees or there-abouts is too demanding.
But, I'm not sure I'd talk about these issues in regards to "modesty" because that term isn't really something I talk about much. I'd call it preference, or style. Modesty's part of it, but outside of a religious context I just don't see that term in use.
fribble
1mo ago
In the past cultures have put guidelines on a woman's appearance, without negotiating with women about it. And now the shoe is simply on the other foot: women's visible sexual qualities are a man's problem, and he should simply ignore the bombardment of visual stimulation as women largely fail to realize just how potent the stimuli are because men have been socialized into silence on the matter. There's gotta be something in the middle.
Why do you think women fail to realize that men are visually stimulated? We're told this constantly. We're told that if a man acts out, it's because of what a woman wore, how she looked. Sure, men shouldn't rape, but did you see what she was wearing?
Given different cultural standards in modesty and dress, I don't believe that cleavage, breasts, legs, or any particular piece of a woman's body is just instant "brain off, hormones gone crazy" for men. It's all what we're used to.
fribble
1mo ago
What advice would you give to someone who complained about a coworker who wore well-tailored slacks?
fribble
1mo ago
I can understand. I disagree - I really don't want to go back to the requirements of my youth of wearing hose over any bared leg and having to do my hair in something more presentable than a pony tail. But I understand people who think we're all a too slovenly.
Things have changed pretty quickly. I remember when my mom first wore jeans outside of the house/yard. Now my kid'll wear sweat pants in public. 3 generations - from skirts and hose in public to PJ bottoms.
fribble
1mo ago
Regular, every day, lift and separate bras don't immobilize breasts. They still move. But yes, they visibly move less than braless breasts do.
Do you think it's the movement that draws the eye, or that OP expects women to be wearing a bra, and is drawn to the deviation from his standard? (Or embrace the power of "and.")
fribble
1mo ago
My husband and I are both readers. "Beach reads" drown out a lot of what's available, and are female dominated. My fiction (political thrillers, historical fiction, mysteries) span both male and female, and generally published from major publishing houses. Political thrillers and historical fiction leaning hard into military historical fiction are pretty male. Mysteries and historical fiction leaning into biographical is more female. My husband reads niche horror (e.g. Thomas Ligotti) and well-crafted small press publications (e.g. Centipede Press, Cemetery Dance, Subterranean Press), and he'd say they're pretty male. Maybe find some small presses?
fribble
1mo ago
As a quick note, my comment about girls and boys expressing sexual interest was a response to a claim that women's bodies are more inherently sexual and that even straight women find them so. Which I disagree with and think is an opinion formed from differences in how men and women are taught to express their sexual interest (or not).
I appreciate your more extended comment, but it's a riff in a different direction (I may get back to it - I have to be amused at your perception of me first).
fribble
1mo ago
This is fascinating. As a breast haver and occasional bra wearer, my perspective is that wearing a bra makes my breasts more pronounced. And I am just talking regular bras, not any fancy gravity defying wizard bra. When I am not wearing a bra, you can see my breasts as forms under my shirt, but they don't pop out, they aren't molded into stereotypical half domes thrust out from my chest.
fribble
1mo ago
Covering women's areolas and nipples has been used as a work around for women going topless, leading me to believe those are the areas of primary concern when people talk about bras and modesty. Since typical bras accentuate and highlight breasts, rather than minimize them, and wearing a bra is considered more modest than not wearing a bra (by the OP) that is potentially the case here. It's weird. More clothes is generally considered more modest than fewer clothes, but bras specifically highlight breasts, you would think people who think of bras as for modesty would be arguing for binding, not bras. Bras accentuate the form, they don't conceal it.
So from my perspective if the concern is nipples, bra or not isn't going to change what people see of mine. And braless-me is less breasts-forward than bra-me is.
fribble
1mo ago
I am a straight woman. I might find particular anatomy aesthetically pleasing, and culturally that might be more true of traditionally female anatomy (I don't know that this is true but it doesn't matter), but a man's body is infinitely more sexually appealing to me than a woman's body. I don't think I am an outlier among straight women in this regard. I also think it's true that straight women are unlikely to be as open, perhaps outside of other straight women, as men are about these things. But I think that's cultural - women who indicate sexual interest, desire, or awareness are sluts and sluts are bad. Girls learn to control themselves and comport themselves appropriately. I am convinced boys are also capable of this, even though our society does not require it of them. However I also think it's perfectly good for girls to comfortably express sexual desire and interest, so rather than have boys learn the self control and denial we impose on girls perhaps we loosen up a bit on expressions of female sexual interest and tighten up a bit on expressions of male sexual interest.
fribble
1mo ago
Then we are likely a lost cause and should abandon all hope. More women wear bras than men wear ties and undershirts. If these things need fixing, the work must start at a more basic level.
fribble
1mo ago
It's more than that. The Key bridge was how hazardous loads got around the east side of the city. They can't (legally) go through the tunnels to go through the city. Now, they're either illegally going through the tunnels, or all going around the west side of the city which adds considerable time to trucking loads up/down 95.
The lack of the Key bridge inconveniences those of us who live here, but it's a real problem for road-based freight. I think that's the primary reason the feds want to throw money at getting it fixed.
fribble
1mo ago
If you want a large Jewish community, have you tried moving out towards Pikesville? You'll encounter fewer gunshots and more "I'm the only one out driving on a Saturday morning..." Not that you should stay here if you don't like it. It's a big wide world, find a place where you're comfortable.
fribble
1mo ago
Marylanders for some reason think Ledos pizza is good. They're weird.
We like Scittinos in Catonsville. Even better is Antica Napoli Pizza in Gettysburg. Hit some orchards on your way there, make it a trip.
fribble
1mo ago
Are you sure women's bodies aren't "more sexual" than men's because of ... men? Maybe you're wanting to require us to wear bras because of your issues, not ours?
For what it's worth, typically not wearing a bra doesn't accentuate breasts. If, as a woman, I want to accentuate my breasts, I'm involving a bra. Not wearing a bra is them in their natural state. If I want to accentuate my lips, I'll wear lipstick. Eyes, eyeshadow. If I'm not wearing lipstick or eyeshadow? It's just my face. I'm not accentuating anything. My face is with me everywhere I go. Like my breasts. Can't leave home without them.
fribble
1mo ago
During covid, a lot of people who started working from home started dressing more casually. I am a C or a D cup, depending on brand, and have been since I was 12. If I'm working out, hiking, or doing physical work, I generally prefer to wear a sports bra just to keep my breasts in check. Otherwise, I'm perfectly content not wearing a bra. So during covid, I pretty much stopped wearing a bra. That meant if I needed to run to the grocery store for something, I went without a bra. I'm not my mom. I'm not going to change out of my jeans into something "appropriate" for outsiders, put on some hose, and do my hair and face to go to the store. I wasn't raised in the 50s. I'm comfortable slipping on some sneakers, running a brush through my hair, and going to get some lettuce. How much effort should I expend on this? Are my nipples truly that distracting in the produce aisle? I've given birth and nursed a baby. You can see my nipples. Even when I wear a bra - form-shaping underwire or breast-squooshing sports bra - you can see my nipples.
I'm old, so when I go into the office, or otherwise need to be observed to be professional, I'll throw on a bra. But on my own time? Forget it. In my lifetime we've stopped requiring hose if our ankles might show and (mostly?) stopped requiring shoes that deform and mutilate feet. I'm all for tossing out bras as a required undergarment. FWIW, my understanding is bras at best can contribute to comfort (see my comment about physical activity) and at worst can actually be harmful. From my perspective, they're usually uncomfortable, challenging to size properly, expensive, require special laundering, and I'm not convinced they do anything to promote modesty at least for those of us whose nipples scream "fed babies!" Observing my college-aged daughter's peers, they seem to be treating bras much like I treated hose at their age (old people expect us to use them, so we will when we think we should care about old people, but otherwise hose/bras are dumb and we're not going to bother unless we want to for a particular reason).
Is not wearing a tie lazy? And I think the undershirt is another lost garment. Should we be concerned about male modesty?
fribble
2mo ago
FWIW my marriage is almost 30 and we have had some stages where we were less than loving towards each other. Fortunately they have been short lived and we're mutually committed to making the relationship work. But everyone has bad moments and forgiveness is a gift to be given generously to those we love. Don't judge yourselves too harshly if you ever find yourself in one of those picky-pokey stages.
fribble
3mo ago
It might be worth letting your friend know it doesn't have to be vax or not. I found the early childhood vaccines to be a slam dunk in terms of risk vs illness, but I wasn't thrilled with the schedule. We did one vaccine at a time. It meant more doc visits, but that wasn't a problem for me and the ped. was fine with spacing them out.
fribble
4mo ago
Agreed. In many jobs, to be successful you need to be curious, willing to take risks, able to think things through logically, and problem solve. But for a kid who's never plugged in a phone jack, it shouldn't be surprising if they're also confused when asked about an ethernet cable. This came up because when my kid lived in her first dorm at college, we set her up with a hard wired connection, expecting wireless to be completely overwhelmed. She became the tech support person on her dorm floor because apparently no one else walked their kids through this process. So she'd take her friends to Staples, get them whatever they needed for their particular computer, show them where the jack was in their room (kind of hidden) and get them set up. These kids have not been taught or encouraged to take risks, so the idea of plugging a very expensive computer into some random thing in a way they've never seen or done wasn't something they took to immediately. It all makes sense if you consider the current environment.
This is why I don't want to look for quiz answers or trick questions when interviewing. I want to look for the curious ones, the ones who're willing to try to puzzle through something. I don't care as much about how accurate they are, I care that they're willing to take the risk of admitting they don't know something in front of someone else and try and talk through how they might arrive at an answer.
I wish it were wildly out of date.
Girls and women are very clearly told that what we wear makes us responsible for men's behavior towards us.
See the comment above: "Wearing clothing that draws attention to your sexual characteristics and then complaining when people give you sexual attention (eg, lewding, catcalling) is sexual harassment. On your end. You initiated it, you are responsible for it."
What's clothing that draws attention to our sexual characteristics? Anything that makes it clear we have breasts, legs, butt, any part of our anatomy a man might find arousing.
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