SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
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User ID: 853
I mean....if Israel uses a nuke, it means they already made the rational calculation your going to destroy their survival. Why not use a nuke if thats the case? ...
From what it sounds like, you seem to think Israel is a weak little state that will fold at the drop of the hat. They arent. They are the Middle East's Prussia. A military with a state.
You are talking out of both sides of your mouth... Israel is this invincible Middle East Prussia, but then at the same time Israel's survival is threated by a Palestinian state. Which is it?
Forcing Israel to accept a two-state solution is not going to destroy Israel. It might destroy some expansionist ambitions fueled by fanatical belief in biblical prophecy. And that's a good thing, that has not been good for the region.
That's why Israel would capitulate. If the entire world is pressuring Israel to accept a two-state solutions, with EU peacekeepers to put down any troublemakers on either side to make it happen, there's no reason to humor the notion of Israel nuking Europe.
Israel was neutral about the invasion of Iraq.
This is a whole other debate. They publicly had one position, but privately they funneled bogus intelligence about WMDs to the White House, including claims like an Iraqi spy supplying a 9/11 hijacker with Anthrax while in Prague. Israel pushed this intelligence in October, just a month after the WTC and anthrax attacks.
For someone who wants less problems for Europe, it seems very counter intuitive to desire a possible military action against Israel and enforce a failed Palestinian state, which would likely set up a regional war when there isnt one anyway.
Because the US/EU has no control over Israel yet we are responsible for and impacted by what happens in the Middle East. When the Yemenis shut down shipping lanes, it's the problem of the United States. You've already explained why a regional war in the Middle East would be a catastrophe for Europe, so why do you keep asking why the US/EU cares what happens there?
If it were up to me, there would be a one-state solution with equal political rights between Israelis and Palestinians, and constitutional protections for any minority groups. But you would regard that as a bigger existential threat than a two-state solution. So the reality is you have no solutions, you are demanding we accept the status quo, or demanding we accept an ethnic cleansing of the region which will destroy our credibility and myths surrounding our own hegemony. The international community is getting tired of it, and yes they brought Israel into this world with a vote. That's the sort of origin story that gives the demands of the international community a lot of weight.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
Israel is a nuclear armed state. You want a special military operation against a nuclear armed state to enforce what is likely an existential crisis for the nuclear armed nation?
A two-state solution enforced by the EU is not an existential crisis for Israel.
I don't think the Israelis are going to nuke their Plan B. A decent portion of dual citizens have already left. If they are willing to nuke Europe for forcing a two-state solution onto them, by force if necessary, then that already says everything we need to know about our Greatest Ally.
But it wouldn't get that far, the Israelis would fold like a cheap suit if the EU plausibly threatened to enforce a two-state solution with the threat of force, with the backing of the majority of the world community. The international community brought Israel into this world, if Israel is going to throw nukes to stop a two-state solution then that is a big problem for the entire world which needs to be solved.
Thats a redline for the Israelis. They might genuinely choose to detonate a thermonuclear bomb over Europe in response. And Europe would deserve it.
History rhymes, that would end poorly for Israel, but it wouldn't come to that.
Israel expelling the Palestinians leads to a regional war.
You realize Israel has already, again, brought the region to the brink of war? The purpose of enforcing a two-state solution onto Israel with international administration of Jerusalem would be to prevent the likelihood of a regional war which Western support of Israel is currently enabling under the status quo.
Why Europe even needs an opinion to care about this conflict, that they need to impose a solution, is whats ridiculous?
You just explained why a regional war is a catastrophe for European and American interests. I've already explained that these military operations in the Middle East are a huge burden of resources and credibility, now we are fighting Yemen in a very expensive engagement that is probably going to last quite a while. It's our problem, it's not just Israel's problem.
Why should Europe do anything only to make a contained situation worse.
I do not know what you are smoking if you call the situation "contained." It is not contained. Israel has failed for decades to contain the situation. They aren't capable of it. It's time for the international community to intervene.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
That's not practical, because it discredits America and makes enemies of a billion Arabs. Even Joe Biden enabling the Israelis in their current operation is a huge blow to the perceived legitimacy of America in the region. Israel is not and has never been worth all the animosity it has earned the United States from the Arab world. Practical considerations means it's time's up on Israel failing to secure peace after many decades and enormous leeway and support.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
Touché, but Manifest Destiny was more than that. It was conquest, Gold, God, and Glory. A civilization only thrives in the act of becoming. Keeping the lights on within an economic zone is not that.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
You don't even need a rival, you just need some sort of vision. What is America's vision beyond an economic zone? It's extremely lackluster. So Goodguy can say "nobody cares about imperial aesthetics anymore", but maybe that is a big part of the problem, and the reason the citizens are increasingly feeling detached and pessimistic and demoralized...
The entire Holocaust extermination program is said to have taken place on the Eastern Front in territory conquered by the Soviets. It's fair to say the gas chamber extermination program is the only thing the mainstream public actually knows about the Eastern Front. If you take that away, then the Einsatzgruppen reprisals, the mass resettlement of the Jews has a horrific basis of comparison with the Soviet conquests and massacres. Or the Allied Firebombings of civilian population centers for that matter. Nobody bats an eye at the firebombings of Berlin or Dresden, because the alleged extermination of millions of people in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms inside secret camps stands head and shoulders beyond all the other horrific realities of the war. It's an outlier, which should make one suspicious of its veracity.
The resettlement of the Jews, the Einsatzgruppen reprisals, the concentration camps... the firebombings of major civilian population centers, the nuclear attacks on Japan, the mass executions and mass rapes by the Red Army. There is actual ambiguity if you take that all in. But the public only really cares about the Gas Chamber claim, it cuts through all the other issues. And that's by design, and was accomplished by the conjugation of Hollywood and the apparatus of Stalinist propaganda. Without it, there actually is ambiguity on both fronts, not just the Eastern front.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
Can the American empire survive as an economic-proposition state? I don't think so. It has to have more glorious ambitions than that.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
This is a Chesterson's Fence situation. We decided that it was Very Enlightened to not care about things like aesthetics, building giant statues, or verbalizing imperial ambitions in polite company (you are supposed to couch your imperial ambitions in terms of Saving Democracy and Spreading Freedom, much more progressive and enlightened). But without those things, it's pretty damn hard to maintain an empire. Take something like Demographic change. Is it possible for us to let go of the grug-brain attachment to flags and statues without committing demographic suicide and losing the empire? Apparently not.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
Agreed, however, that the religious Catholicism is the reason for adopting Haitian children; having a large to very large family is a necessity for a woman in her social milieu and orphans from Haiti are easy to get if you don't care about race.
This is actually not true though, the entire process was extremely expensive, difficult, and shady to say the least. It was absolutely not the path of least resistance for adopting children, they really wanted Haitian children.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
This all started because Palestine attacked Israel. Israel then counter-attacked. Iran wanted to mess with the Saudis and armed Houthis to attack Americans.
That is a really gross oversimplification. Under a real two-state solution enforced by external parties, there would be no illegal blockades and settlements and Israeli expansionism. Yes, I do think that would go a long way in cooling tensions and setting the groundwork for long-term peace.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
I do blame Biden for enabling the status quo. It's going to destroy his legacy, particularly if things continue to escalate.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
Say the EU forces a two-state solution which includes EU administration of Jerusalem and the resettlement of all Jewish settlers out of the West Bank. Is a Palestinian state going to attack Tel-Aviv? Or Jewish locals in EU-administered Jerusalem? Then it's the EU's problem to solve that. That's a better arrangement than America being forced to fight all the enemies through the Middle East of a rogue Israel which it doesn't control.
This does assume a remilitarization of Europe which is already underway due to Russian aggression against Ukraine.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
Operation Poseidon Archer
Reported by CNN:
The United States has named the ongoing operation to target Houthi assets in Yemen “Operation Poseidon Archer,” according to two US officials.
The named operation suggests a more organized, formal and potentially long-term approach to the operations in Yemen, where the US has been hitting Houthi infrastructure as the Iran-backed rebel group has vowed to keep targeting commercial vessels in the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden.
I have mixed feelings about this. It is clearly the responsibility of the imperial hegemon to protect global shipping lanes. But by that same logic, it's time for the imperial hegemon to force a settlement onto the Israelis due to their never-ending destabilization of the region. That would entail the EU forcing a peace onto Israel, performing a Special Military Operation within Israel if necessary.
Bring back the 117 AD borders, with EU administration of Jerusalem. Jews may live in Jerusalem, wail at their wall and study Torah in peace, but it is utterly nonsensical for the West to continue to bear the burden of Israeli destabilization of the region.
This washy middle ground of appealing to imperial obligations when it comes to Middle Eastern intervention, without control of the "vassal" state destabilizing the region, is a never-ending pattern that has to stop. The US and EU has more than enough leverage to force a settlement onto Israel.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
Why do you think Amy Coney Barrett adopted Haitian children if there was no fixation on race? There is obviously a virtue signaling element to that kind of decision, which is tied to the racial dynamics at play. She is leaning into those dynamics rather than rejecting them.
"Great Patriotic War" is considered sacred only in Russia
I am amazed that you don't think WWII is considered sacred and an unambiguous moral conflict in America. There is -zero- ambiguity in the mind of the public regarding that war, and the role of the United States in it, as anything short of a heroic salvation of the entire world, not just Europe. And that is foremost due to the gas chamber story everyone has been inundated with their entire lives in school, movie theaters, etc.
Even in this thread you have many people who refuse to accept that if Great Britain had remained neutral in Poland or Soviet war, there would have been no war in Western Europe. Even they cannot come to terms with the ambiguity of the decisions of the Western Allies to wage the war. They view it as inevitable when it was not.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
Look, the eastern front was evil vs evil in a way that breaks most peoples’ brains. I don’t blame you for trying to resolve that ambiguity in your head by absolving the Nazis of guilt.
This is a funny way to put it, because the whole gas chamber story is really what aims to resolve the ambiguity not just on the Eastern front, but on the entire war. Imagine how ambiguous the entire war effort and war consequences become if you take the gas chamber story away. Certainly I accept greater ambiguity on the Eastern Front than the person who believes all the claims about mass gas chamber extermination of millions of people inside shower rooms...
Look at 2rafa's argument: What Israel is doing can't be compared to the Nazis. Yes, it can be compared because it is very similar in very concrete ways. It's only the gas chamber story that puts it in a different realm of reality, where it does not belong.
Because Germany was quite clearly capable of running large scale prison camps with a normal-at-the-time death rate in conditions of wartime.
The death rates were "normal-at-the-time" throughout the war. Conditions became brutal in the final months of the war when the entire country was being destroyed and bombed on all sides, which did not happen in WWI. The gruesome footage captured by the Western allies at the liberation of camps like Belsen were not even filmed at the alleged extermination centers, and there is no footage or anything of those alleged massacres. Just eyewitnesses. The collapse of Germany was not planned, using the carnage from that to allege a planned extermination is not logical even if we accept custodial guilt for the conditions at the end of the war.
Not to mention the massacres ‘in the field’ by einsatzgruppen. I’ve never seen a Holocaust denier even attempt to address the einsatzgruppen by the way
Address how? Revisionists accept the documents which do point to anti-partisan activities and reprisals. Revisionists point to the fact that no order has ever been found for the extermination of all Jews, just evidence of anti-partisan activity and reprisals. Partisan warfare was enormously detrimental to the German war effort, and reprisals were even legal according to international law at the time. German civilians were intentionally targeted by the Allies as well. What Israel is doing in Gaza right now is a reprisal against Gazan civilians. The reprisals were real, the gassing of millions of people inside gas chambers disguised as shower rooms was not real.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
I told you what I think you are doing, with examples
You jumped in this thread to accuse me of participating in bad-faith. I only asked you to quote any of my comments here in which you think I'm acting in bad faith, instead of hiding behind paraphrasing and generalizations. You refuse to do that, because you can't.
If other mods want to jump in and accuse me of participating in bad-faith, I'm going to ask the exact same question and expect I'll receive the exact same answer of refusing to engage.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
There are two possibilities here:
- You genuinely believe you aren't doing what we described.
You are accusing me of being bad faith, obviously I do not believe I am participating in bad faith. I have asked for you to point to where I am being bad faith, but you "refuse to engage", which does increase my confidence that your accusations are not true...
If you are going to accuse somebody of something, you should be willing to engage in the conversation and let the person defend himself... you accuse me of being "bad faith" in this conversation out of nowhere and then refuse to elaborate. Obviously I can't stop you all from banning me, but I am going to ask you to elaborate if you are accusing me of doing something I do not think I am doing...
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
If you accuse me of being bad-faith, and I ask you to point out where exactly in this conversation I have been bad-faith, and you reply like this then I think it's fair for me to complain about this moderator intervention here...
How about you just let this conversation happen without jumping in to accuse me of being bad faith, and then refusing to identify where in this conversation I have done what you are accusing me of?
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
Israeli treatment of the Palestinians is quite horrible and still isn’t half as horrible Nazi treatment of the European Jews.
It's not as much a question of "horribleness."
For our entire lifetimes, the idea of anybody supporting a mass expulsion/deportation/resettlement, whatever you want to call it, so close to home has not even entered into anybody's minds. It is significant that now we are faced with two plausible programs of mass resettlement within the "Western" sphere of influence: the resettlement of Palestinians out of Palestine, i.e. to the Sinai desert, and the mass deportation of non-European migrants.
Of course people like 2rafa who support these initiatives are going to try to explain why these programs cannot be compared to the Nazi policies regarding the Jews. But the uncomfortable reality is that they are definitely comparable. It's a grave situation, it's going to be violent if these policies are carried out. The gas chamber legend elevates the Nazi policies to another plane of existence, and allows people like 2rafa to not confront the similarities which are definitely there.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
What that means is, for example, multiple people have walked through your claims that there is "no written evidence of an intent to exterminate Jews"
Why avoid actually quoting the parts of my comments where you think I'm being dishonest?
I said, exactly:
Historians though claim that (for some reason) this long-standing policy was replaced with an extermination order (they can't say who, when, where or why such a radical change in policy was decided, and such an order has never been found)
And nobody in the replies has challenged this claim at all or provided an explanation for this: the who, when, where, and why the long-standing policy of resettlement became "extermination." Even Historians don't have a consensus on this point either, and it's dishonest to pretend otherwise.
Can you Amadan please show me where this question has been answered for me, and I haven't responded to those answers, such that I have no right to again make this point where it is relevant?
This is a highly relevant point because if Revisionists are correct, that the Resettlement policy never actually changed to "extermination", and that accusation is a wartime propaganda fiction, then 2rafa's conclusions are wrong.
I promise I will engage in good faith, if you can just give me examples of something I have said here which is dishonest.
On the other hand, I think it's dishonest and bad-faith for Moderators to constantly put on their red hats when I am engaging in discussion. If you are going to accuse me of bad faith, then point to where in this thread specifically you think I'm engaging in bad faith or not responding to people who have replied to me. That would be more helpful than using your moderator status to accuse me of bad faith with vague generalities, and threatening to ban me for engaging in the discussion.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
The Nazis conducted slave raids across Europe insofar as the Soviets conducted slave raids across Europe, but nobody says the latter because the only real purpose of the former is to draw distinctions that don't actually exist. It's pretty typical of the mainstream historical method, too: ignore the thousands of WVHA documents dealing with the administration of the prisoner labor force, which did not regard them as slaves (and they were paid for their labor), but pick out a sentence from a (poorly sourced? can't tell) "secret speech" by Himmler.
If you want to call the forced labor during the war slavery that's your prerogative. I think it would be dishonest to call wartime forced labor as salvery but not conscription for front-line combat. But it's just splitting hairs. My point was that just because the Israelis have no plans to use Palestinians for forced labor does not mean their proposals to expel the Palestinians to the Sinai peninsula cannot be compared to German plans for the resettlement of Jews.
If someone like 2rafa is making a post that is inviting a discussion of this topic, i.e. trying to make an argument for reasons these situations are not comparable, I'm going to engage in the discussion with my viewpoint. You need to decide if you are going to ban me for doing this or not, I agree it's an annoying situation. It's up to you, I'm not going to avoid engaging in these discussions just because I'm afraid of these kinds of mods interventions. That defeats the point of this community for me...
What I will not do is not spam top-level threads to force topics like this every week, which I've never done. But if someone brings up a topic like this in a relevant CW discussion (especially with 2rafa trying to let Israel off the hook for policies that are indeed very similar to the Nazis), I'm going to participate, and if you're going to ban me for it then the ball's in your court I guess...
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
8mo ago
The Anglos paid dearly and lost their empire. They slaughtered their continental brethren and destroyed Old Europe. It's a perverted inversion of reality that this war is seen through the lens it is today, as a grand triumph.
Bravo to Trace, I suspect this investigation will gain traction, he should embrace it and maybe we'll see him on the Tucker Carlson podcast soon.
It's been interesting watching this argument continue to unfold between Stancil and Sailer, and it's still going on. A couple weeks ago we had the CW thread about BAP saying that Sailer-style race-realism is a dead end and the right-wing should embrace the myth of colorblindness. This thread shows why that conclusion is wrong. HBD is not a mythological replacement for progressivism (and that is actually what we need), but this thread shows it's needed because it's incredibly disruptive to the liberal mind.
BAP and some others on the DR who are critical of HBD-focus rightfully point out that liberals and the establishment are not driven by the factual belief in racial equality. They are driven by other myths and what is essentially a religious impulse to achieve racial equality as an ideal they are striving for. When confronted with truthful arguments demonstrating HBD they can react in various ways, lashing out in public HBD denial like Stancil is doing here, or privately coming to accept it but publicly avoiding the topic altogether. But ultimately, accepting HBD as true wouldn't necessarily change their minds, this FAA-DEI scandal is an artifact of conflict theory and not mistake theory. They have different ideals, ideals that mean diversifying ATC (however that's accomplished) is a good thing, and their minds are not going to change by being presented with HBD arguments, no matter how respectfully those arguments are presented.
But this also explains why public debate and DR emphasis on HBD is necessary. Although this FAA-DEI scandal was driven by an idealism rather than mistaken belief in non-HBD explanations for racial inequality, recognizing HBD functions as a significant disruption to the underlying ideals that are accepted by almost everyone without question. Trace says that this nasty conversation is just a sad failure of two people to exchange ideas productively, or who are cynically just trying to build their own brands. It's more significant than that, Sailer is slaughtering sacred cows in the public square. That has an important place even though it is not a replacement for the harder task of building a replacement civic religion for this nonsense.
Stancil shows the incredible difficulty liberals have in reconciling HBD with their ideals. Sailer's dogged commitment to that topic is not going to help the other side resolve their factual errors in their worldview (as Trace may hope), it's going to weaken the foundation of what is essentially religious ideology. And yes, ugly spats in the public square are how that happens.
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