Lewis
11mo ago
"Why should I care what God wants? Why is God's morality more important than any other?"
If an omnipotent, omniscient being thinks that A is good and B is bad, it would be an act of insane hubris to imagine that you could know better than him. The more so when this being has the power to sentence you to eternal suffering or bliss.
Lewis
11mo ago
If you’re religious, the old Sunday morning ceremony followed by potluck in the parish hall is pretty cheap too.
Lewis
11mo ago
It kinda raises the question: what’s the point of all this? Why go through the motions of a very low effort, transparent, by-the-letter-of-the-law power grab?
Less paperwork this way? Whatever the reason, it does my rules-lawyering heart good to see someone manage it on a national scale.
Lewis
11mo ago
I won’t argue about Rhodesia, as I’m not that familiar with its history. I do, however, see similarities between its colonial start and that of Israel. They’re not identical, obviously, but I think at least somewhat similar.
I see more similarities with South Africa—especially with their Bantustans, which share a number of characteristics with the current Palestinian territories. And while you are correct that the US didn’t always try very hard to destroy their government (I spoke way too strongly earlier; mea culpa), they did refuse to sell them arms starting in the 1960s. In fact, after the 1977 international embargo, it seems that just about the only country that was willing to sell them weapons was Israel, which I’ll admit I find moderately significant. That fact on its own seems like weak evidence that Israel saw South Africa as a sympathetic country in some respects.
Either way, look at the United States’ different approaches. We refused to sell arms to South Africa, and we imposed on-again/off-again sanctions until their government fell. With Israel, we are happy to prop them up, sell them weapons, bribe their enemies to get along with them, and use our Navy to cow their enemies when that doesn’t work. If the United States had supported the South African government to the same extent that we support Israel’s, would it have collapsed? I’m inclined to say no. Alternatively, if we stopped supporting the Israeli government (not even sanctioned it; just stopped giving it free stuff!), would it collapse? Maybe, maybe not. It’s certainly more likely than it is as things stand now. (To be clear, I don’t actually want Israel to collapse; I just don’t want to use our treasure to stop it from happening. I say let them stand on their own two feet and what happens, happens.)
Lewis
11mo ago
But the sort of Christian who uses the "How can you be moral without God?" argument… isn't interested in genuine discussion, but in seeing who can win the gotcha contest.
I think in a lot of cases, that is a sincere question. Most Christians are at least nominal deontologists, with God as the ultimate judge of what is right and wrong. If that’s the only moral system you know and can model, an atheist is going to seem like an ethically unmoored individual. In that context, the question isn’t a gotcha, but indicative of ignorance of utilitarianism.
Lewis
11mo ago
Hmm, this might be one reason I find this conflict so irritating. I’m suddenly finding myself with an uncomfortable group of allies.
Lewis
11mo ago
Oh, I’m not trying to fool anyone. Unlike our Secure correspondent, I have no problems with Jews. No, my beef is with Israel. I believe they have a parasitic relationship with the United States, I dislike the influence they have over our politicians, and I despise the blatant hypocrisy of their most ardent defenders. All that said, I don’t like the Palestinians much either. I think I might have said this before, but as I see it, the Israelis are a bunch of bastards, and the Palestinians are an even bigger bunch of bastards (with the usual caveat that there are some fine people on both sides).
With regard to the most recent conflict, my chief concern is that the United States stays out of it. Not a penny of aid to Israel, no munitions, no bribing the Egyptians to play nice, and no accepting any Palestinian refugees. I hate that we are getting involved, that our congress is passing bills equating anti-Zionism with antisemitism, that the universities are getting dragged on the carpet for allowing anti-Israel protests (which I’m not going to deny included some antisemitic speech), when no one cared that they allowed anti-white speech, or at least certainly didn’t care to the same extent.
More broadly, I find it ridiculous and unamerican that 3/4th of our state legislatures have passed laws to protect Israeli financial interests. I hate the fact that so many conservatives (my own crowd) unthinkingly consider Israel our greatest ally, just because their congressmen and Fox News told them they were. I briefly had this argument with my father recently; he thinks Israel should bomb Gaza and the West Bank (!) to the ground, so that not a single building is left standing. If any Palestinians survive, fine. If they don’t, that’s fine too. He furthermore believes that we should fund this insane genocide, because “Israel is our greatest ally. Just look at how they were there for us after 9/11.” When I asked why Britain, Germany, or Australia—countries that actually sent troops to help us, unlike Israel, didn’t deserve the title of “greatest ally” instead, he retreated to saying “they provided us with intelligence.” When I pointed out that their intelligence included the lies about WMDs in Iraq, he lost interest in continuing the discussion. “We just need to help them any way we can.” Here’s the thing, he’s not so mind-killed on any subject but Israel, and he’s far from alone in that regard!
Meanwhile, my political opponents are even worse. Colonialism is evil, except for Israel. Stealing land is evil, except for settlements in the West Bank. Apartheid is evil, unless the victims are Palestinian (and yes, I know Israel has some Arab Israeli citizens, and even allows them the vote. They notably forbade them the vote initially, and only enfranchised them once it became clear that the Jewish Israelis had and would keep their ethnic majority). I at least give some credit to the pro-Palestinian left for being consistent, even if I think the Palestinians are mostly worse than the Israelis.
Cycling back around to the start of this comment, all of this wouldn’t bother me if it remained academic. If America would just keep its money and it’s materiel off the table, I wouldn’t care what people thought about the conflict. But that just doesn’t seem in the cards—and what’s more, most people think that’s great. When I opposed our support of the Arab Spring, I found plenty of sympathizers. When I said we shouldn’t get involved in Syria, lots of people agreed. Even when I said that Europe can defend Ukraine if it wants to, but we should not, people were willing to hear me out. For some reason (media influence, sympathy for the Holocaust, whatever), all but the most ardent isolationists (and far-right and far-left) think we should give Israel whatever it wants. I just can’t fathom where this undying, unthinking loyalty to Israel comes from, nor why people care so much more about it than they do about the many more pressing problems we face here in this country.
Lewis
11mo ago
Or they’re tired of America being the world police; tired of America being asked to foot the bill for “America’s greatest ally,” even when that ally… hasn’t been all that great, actually; and tired of seeing all the double standards that apply anytime Israel comes up. For example, want to boycott apartheid South Africa? The US will happily join you in that. Want to boycott Israel? 37 states will do everything in their power to stop you. Or take safety: the pro-Israel crowd loves to talk about the hatred Palestinians feel toward Israel, and declare that it would be unreasonable to ask the Israelis to let those Palestinians become Israeli citizens and voters. But those same people don’t seem the least bit concerned when South African politicians enliven their mass rallies with the cheerful music of “Kill the Boer,” nor were they concerned in the 1980s, when PAC party members led “one settler, one bullet” chants among their supporters.
Lewis
11mo ago
I don’t know that I’d go so far as to say that most of the criticism of Israel that comes from the right is antisemitic, at least not in the United States. Some of it is antisemitic, sure, but plenty of it also comes from Pat Buchanan-style isolationists and from folks—especially, in my experience, younger folks—who find some of Israel’s actions and foreign influence questionable at best. The attitude of the latter group toward the current conflict can perhaps best be summed up as “I just hope both sides have fun,” which I’ve seen a number of times and which is distinctly not antisemitic.
Lewis
11mo ago
Completely agree. Israel’s plan to evacuate Palestinians to Europe and America should be proof enough of that.
Lewis
11mo ago
While I agree with you that growing up in an ethnically homogenous community/state is nice and that the existence of such states is in theory legitimate, I recognize that this is not the current international consensus, and I applaud @Gillitrut for being consistent in his convictions. What annoys me more than anything is the blatant hypocrisy surrounding Israel: colonialism bad, apartheid bad, Lebensraum bad, blood and soil nationalism bad—but Israel good? If Rhodesia and the old South Africa government deserved to be sanctioned out of existence, Israel absolutely deserves it too. If the U.S. hadn’t done its best to destroy the former two countries’ governments, I would support Israel today. However, as things stand, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander, so “hey, hey, ho, ho, Israel has got to go.”
Lewis
11mo ago
Really? You find modern-day German unpleasant-sounding? I agree that old German accents were pretty harsh-sounding, but almost all of the Germans I’ve known have been so soft-spoken that their language sounded downright pretty.
French, on the other hand, is hideous. I don’t understand how it ever became “the language of love.”
Lewis
11mo ago
All of the important founding Canadians were Christian afaik, which means they believed Christmas to be the most important day in human history.
In addition to AshLael’s correction about Easter, I’ll note that any early Puritan or Presbyterian Canadian settlers would have been decidedly anti-Christmas. I don’t know enough about Canadian history to say how much of an influence they might have had, but I know at least one of the American colonies (Massachusetts) made it illegal to celebrate Christmas at all.
Lewis
11mo ago
Thanks for the reply. I’ve found my own personal experience a bit interesting, since if anything, I’d have expected the more pro-Marcos people to stay and the more anti-Marcos to emigrate. You’re probably right that the economic prospects of immigrating to the States likely outweighed everything else.
Lewis
11mo ago
Given your ancestry, you might be able to help answer a question that’s been at the back of my mind for awhile. All the Filipinos and half-Filipinos I know were and remain very pro-Marcos (the dictator, not the current president, though they like him too). Assuming you’re Filipino-American, do you have any sense as to how widespread that attitude is among Filipino immigrants? Was there some sort of selection effect, such that only the more pro-Marcos folks came to this country, or is my small sample size just not very representative?
Lewis
11mo ago
The question attached to the much bigger issue of India allegedly targeting US/Canadian citizen/asylee is what should US and Canada do about active Sikh separatist operating from their soil?
Surely the answer is “nothing,” right? If they’re US citizens, they get to enjoy US freedom of speech, no matter what India thinks of the matter.
Lewis
11mo ago
Most of their ancestors used to be Jews
Were they? My understanding was that modern-day Palestinians traced their ancestry back primarily to ancient Canaanites, not Jews.
Lewis
11mo ago
I’m not convinced, mostly based on my own school experience. I attended parochial elementary schools and a public high school. I can still remember the shock I felt when, in my freshman Honors English class, we started going over adjectives, adverbs, prepositions, direct and indirect objects, etc. In Honors English. It turns out that this information—which we learned in first and second grade—was largely new for many of the public schools kids. I have no idea what the regular English students were learning.
Now, you could argue that grammar isn’t all that important, but if it is, I don’t see how you’re going to teach it in history class. Or take metaphors and figurative language. I’ve seen college students struggle and fail to understand Swift’s Modest Proposal and Lewis’s Screwtape Letters. Unless you integrate your English literature and history classes (as OracleOutlook suggested), a good chunk of these students will never understand what is basically just written sarcasm.
Lewis
11mo ago
Oh, they will, but at least they’ll be forced to deal with English grammar and reading comprehension in their English classes (through lectures, quizzes, in-class assignments, etc.)—hopefully enough so that some of it will stick.
Lewis
11mo ago
If you eliminate mandatory English classes, the only people who will take them as electives will be those who will benefit the least from them. All those who hate reading, writing, and grammar will avoid them for four years, then suddenly find themselves unable to graduate when they fail the basic reading and writing tests their senior year. And no, the kids aren’t going to do their required history reading, so that’s not going to help. They’ll also use ChatGPT to write their papers (this is already happening), so their writing skills will atrophy as well.
Lewis
11mo ago
To expand on that, a +35 comment is easily in the top 10% of most-upvoted comments on any given thread. Most comments are +10 or less. Community consensus with such a small group means very little.
Lewis
11mo ago
Also, while your linked video of Gaudete is my second-favorite recording of that song, allow me to share an even better one.
Lewis
11mo ago
I rather like Christmas carols, and I grew up learning a bunch at school and church, so I’ll give you a lot. First, some of the ones I learned as a child:
- Adeste Fideles/O Come, All Ye Faithful
- Angels We Have Heard on High
- Away in a Manger
- Ding Dong, Merrily on High
- From Heaven Above to Earth I Come
- God Rest Ye, Merry Gentlemen
- Good King Wenceslaus
- Hark! the Herald Angels Sing
- I Saw Three Ships
- In Dulci Jubilo
- O Come, Little Children (Ihr Kinderlein Kommet)
- O Holy Night
- O How Joyfully (O Du Fröhliche)
- O Little Town of Bethlehem
- Silent Night
- The First Noel
- We Three Kings
- What Child Is This
Kids tend to especially like “Angels We Have Heard” and “Ding Dong, Merrily” for the lengthy slurs in the refrains.
Others that I learned as an adult and rather like:
- A Babe Is Born All of a Maid (this is also frequently set to a modern tune, but I vastly prefer the one I linked)
- On This Day, Earth Shall Ring (Personent Hodie)
- Sussex Carol
- The Seven Joys of Mary
Then of course there are the many fantastic Advent hymns (O Come, O Come, Emmanuel; The Angel Gabriel from Heaven Came; Savior of the Nations, Come, etc.), and plenty of other good Christmas hymns that I wouldn’t consider quite carols.
From the Jordan to the Dead Sea would certainly reduce tensions.
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