Felagund
3mo ago
Unfortunately, a world where we're comfortable paying for things by printing dollars is not healthy either. Congressmen lose all sense of scale that is created by forcing oneself to compare to revenue taken in and get used to printing more money. We don't want to be Argentina (or take your pick of reckless country).
Regarding 3, will that result in black market or foreign institutions trying to do the same things without the T-bills?
Felagund
3mo ago
Yeah, creating pots of money under government control often has unintended consequences.
Felagund
3mo ago
This is an overly simplistic view of the relationship of the old and new covenants. (Accordingly, maybe be a little slower to say those final two sentences of yours, especially since @Quantumfreakonomics demonstrated knowledge of what you talk about by his reference to the Mosaic covenant.)
The following is probably not optimally ordered, but it should present things in a little more detail and clarity (I'd need to do significantly more reading to clarify my thoughts enough to do it better). But first we'll look at the law as laid down at the time of Moses. This can, generally speaking, be classified into three sorts of laws:
- Moral laws, which are articulations of general moral principles. Any appearance in the Mosaic law is just a repetition and reiteration of something that was already true and incumbent upon all mankind. An example is, "Thou shalt not kill."
- Ceremonial laws, which are laws governing Israel in respect of its existing as a church. Unlike the moral laws, these were not incumbent upon people before they were articulated by God. The entire system of sacrifices and laws concerning those would be one example of something in this category.
- Civil laws, which are laws governing Israel in respect of its existing as a polity. These fill the same role as the various civil laws of the United States do for me. An example of this is the establishment of cities of refuge, or any of the penalties attached to any of the laws.
Christ's fulfilling of the law refers to his perfectly keeping it, in its entirety. (Rather than, as James 2:10, describes, breaking it in one point, and becoming guilty of the whole.) He alone has properly measured up to its standard, and so earned, on our behalf, the promised rewards associated with that.
Note that this does not abolish any of the three classes of laws. Moral laws still remain, as we still ought to do good things, and not to do bad things. It's not obvious to me that ceremonial laws would be affected by this—plausibly, there's no reason to stop celebrating the passover, just because someone's fully followed the law. And civil laws still must obviously exist, it still makes sense to punish criminals.
Rather, what Christ's fulfillment of the law accomplishes is meriting for us salvation and the rewards of the law—in the case of the promises to Adam, eternal life. In its application to us, that means that we are no longer dependent upon our fully upholding and fulfilling the law to reap these benefits, we are generously given those by means of our being united to Christ.
What about the three classes of laws, then? Why are they not all here?
First, moral laws stick around. They continue to apply in three sense to Christians. First, they serve to remind us of our dependence upon and estate before God by our failure to keep them. (Consider especially the bar Jesus sets in his articulation of them in the sermon on the mount—one breaks the commandment against adultery not merely by adultery outright, but also by lustful desires, for example.) Second, it can deter evil. Third, it acts as a guide to life. None of these change. (If you want textual proof, 1 Corinthians 9:9 cites a law as authoritative.)
Second, ceremonial laws are changed, because the system of laws that are proper to a people who are largely ethnically a single nation, and which exist in anticipation of and invoke a future savior are no longer so fitting when now the people of God are ethnically diverse, and rather look to the past (and future) coming of God in the flesh, and a corresponding fuller revelation. Read Hebrews in its description of how the old covenant relates to the new, and Paul, in his insistent commands against requiring gentiles to follow the Jewish laws. We still have ceremonial laws, though, of a sort—the command to celebrate the Lord's Supper is one.
Third, civil laws are changed. This is because the polity of Old Testament Israel has collapsed. These were never incumbent upon those not living as a part of the people of Israel, anyway. Instead, we have the various legal codes enacted by governments around the world (many of which are better for that people, in the context and society in which they live, than if they were to replace that law with the Israelite one), which are, as stated in Romans 13, of divine ordination and to be obeyed.
(This isn't a full discussion of everything that could be said—I haven't addressed things through the lenses of covenants properly.)
Applying this to the question at hand. What are we to make of the "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his image"? Well, the previous discussion was properly speaking, talking about laws for Israel. This is not one of those, being given rather at the time of Noah. It is also a bit ambiguous (at least in translation, I haven't looked at scholarship on this) whether this is a prophecy or general principle, or a command. Let us assume that it is the latter—that is conceded by your treating it as an old testament law.
Well, first, as this is something that is being given immediately after the flood, to Noah, this seems to have in its scope the entire people upon all the earth. This is different from, say, the commandment of circumcision, which applied only to the sons of Abraham, and to all others who wished to join the church of God as it existed then upon the earth. Rather, this is describing something universal. Accordingly, this could not be a ceremonial law—it is not laying down a churchly rite, that is only contingently the case and for the people of the church. It is explicitly grounded in something universal and enduring to mankind (the image of God), and at a time when it would be delivered to the whole of mankind then existing (Noah and family).
"By man shall his blood be shed" is notably in the passive. This does not seem to give any specific entity (or every individual?) the right to avenge murderers. But it does seem to establish that that person ought to be put to death. A reasonable reading of this passage—though certainly not the only one—is that it is incumbent upon the kingdoms of this world to punish murderers with death (but given the cities of refuge, this is clearly not intended to be limitless or without qualification). This reading seems to be supported by later passages. Genesis 4 had described blood crying out. Deuteronomy 21 requires unresolved murders to have an animal slaughtered in atonement. Romans 13 describes the ruler as an avenger, and refers to bearing the sword (not merely prison or the lash). These all at least plausibly indicate that some crimes, especially murders, demand punishment, and that death is a suitable penalty for that. Because of the universality of the Genesis 9 passage, and because there is no identifiable principle why that should cease due to Christ's coming, at least in my judgment—it is not in respect of the chosen people of God, but is universal, and flows from unchanging principles—we should think that it remains in place.
You may not agree with all of this—I'm not certain of everything I said myself, especially regarding Genesis 9:6—but this does require more serious engagement than a simple dismissal of everything prior to the coming of Christ as irrelevant.
Felagund
3mo ago
Would capital punishment be endorsed by its being laid down as law for the ancient israelites? That would seem to ensure that there are at least some situations where it's proper. (See also the various statements against showing mercy in those contexts.)
I'm a little less confident about war, but Israel entering Canaan seems pretty plausible as by divine command.
Felagund
3mo ago
Genesis 9, and all:
Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image.
Felagund
3mo ago
Is it still worth reading? I've read the first book, but heard elsewhere also that the sequel isn't very good.
Felagund
3mo ago
I'm not sure, exactly. I'm pretty sure that other government programs took out loans from social security.
Felagund
3mo ago
Fair enough—it's still a slap in the face to everyone who will have to pay in the meantime, though.
Felagund
3mo ago
Social security's insolvent. There will be automatic cuts in a decade. Expanding lifespans and falling birthrates will make the situation worse. There's no way the program survives long enough for me to get a penny out of it.
Accordingly, your demand that you benefit is actually just saying that you don't want to be the one stuck with the bill—that's for other schmucks. Keep forcing people into the Ponzi, to make sure it's solvent long enough to fulfill the promises it made to you, specifically.
And this despite that it doesn't really promise you any direct reward! There's no accrued payout that's sitting for you on a leger somewhere. That's just the story they tell you to make you think it's reasonable.
It's almost a quarter of our yearly spending.
No. Social security needs to go. At the very least, we should be means-testing. It's unfortunate that there's no political will to touch it.
Felagund
3mo ago
If I read you rightly, you're still distinguishing between your body and you. I don't understand the lines of that. Why is language your body's (contra an earlier comment), but vision (if I understand your GPU comment) part of you? Though maybe the end of the comment divides less.
I also don't understand why draw the line in your identity at all. Why not have it all be you?
Finally, why do you not consider yourself human?
Felagund
3mo ago
I think if anyone brings it up, it would have to be Vance, citing specifics. If Trump brings it up, no one takes him seriously.
Felagund
3mo ago
I'm not sure if it's sufficiently substantive. Do issues like this motivate people at the national level?
Felagund
3mo ago
I wonder what attacks on their campaign are most likely to stick. There is no record for the future, just vibes. Maybe the best attack on that is that she caves to pressure, especially from leftists? This sort of attack seems better to match the amount of agency she is projecting herself as having, and allows you to show why that's bad.
Debates soon would be good. Once they start actually taking positions, then you have positions to attack.
Felagund
3mo ago
He personally wanted to debate, and it gave more time for any bad impressions to wear off (which, in fact, did not happen, until he was forced out).
Actually, do people still think of Biden as too old now (on a gut level)? Has that lessened since people stopped caring about it?
Felagund
3mo ago
Her prosecutorial record is astonishingly weak and it blows my mind that the Trump campaign hasn't started running huge numbers of ads showing what she did and said during that time. She was just beyond ghoulish in her decisions and I think that the sheen on her image will evaporate once that stuff gets more widely known - at the very least enthusiasm on the left will take a nosedive when they realise they're voting for the cop who wanted to keep innocent black men in jail for prison labour.
Law and order appeals to the median voter, I think. Not sure that would help.
Felagund
3mo ago
And the optics are decided on by the media, who are a wholly owned subsidiary of the DNC. Game, set, and match.
And social media, which is more of a mixed bag.
Felagund
3mo ago
It looks like it's 13000 per year for non-Mormons. That's not bad, though there exist other options for similar prices.
Felagund
3mo ago
as quite willing to compromise on values for tuition money,
Do they? I would have thought they were heavily subsidized.
I wonder if it was also to try to get people to get an account, instead of merely lurking? That would raise engagement with the platform. (I know people who have done so, though I've stubbornly stuck to what's left of nitter for now.)
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