DirtyWaterHotDog
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User ID: 625
DirtyWaterHotDog
10hr ago
ah, that makes more sense. I should've known better than to latch onto a number that suited my biases.
suburban - fewer than 5000 km^2
DC - 4,355.4 km^2Philadelphia - 4,608.9 km^2Chicago - 4,656.3 km^2Miami - 4,743.6 km^2
By city boundaries, only NYC, SF and Boston qualify. (and their city extensions - Jersey City, Daly City and Cambridge).
Guess I intuitively knew this because they're the only 3 US cities I can see myself living in, in the long term.
DirtyWaterHotDog
1d ago
a yard, a car and a dog doesn't a suburb make.
To most, a suburb is best understood as a quiet and safe residential neighborhood away from the downtown core. It has limited through traffic, has easy access to the city and prioritizes families.
I had linked to Google maps of cities (domestic and international) that satisfy these requirements. Then I lost the comment. But, most don't look like sprawling suburbs. They were neighborhoods near Boston (Brookline, Somerville, Cambridge), Brooklyn (Bay ridge, Windsor terrace), SF (Noe valley, Sunset), Seattle (Wallingford, Westlake) and so on.
The impulse to move away from the chaos of a downtown core is understandable. That the alternative must look like a Midwestern suburb is where the rub is.
DirtyWaterHotDog
1d ago
I have.
I read it again. It's a good one. On second reading, I like how sharp and straightforward this article is. It's easy reading. Therefore it must be damn hard writing.
I agree with his theory. But I'm also a comparatively fair, sporty and charismatic Indian (if I say so myself). It places blame on India traits that my ego is shielded from.
It would be convenient for me if this theory were true. Yet, I treat it with a degree of scepticism to counter my own prioirs. But his points are all solid.
Could you elaborate on this scary future? I'm getting sick of Indians being portrayed as an amorphous pestilence. Like a brown mongol horde dipped in shit that's about to destroy western civilizations.
Clearly you (or people who make such comments) find something about the character of Indians to be revolting.
What's the source of it ? Is it lived experience ? Is it that they are Pagans ? Is it the state of their nation ? Is it a feeling of being threatened ? Is it something else ?
I can easily pass off as 'one of the good ones' so I am not too bothered. But, I've realized that my calibration of how a section of American society viewed Indians was off by a wild margin. I am trying to re-calibrate, so an honest answer would be appreciated. Don't hold back.
edit: I am reading all of the replies. Will try to find a common theme to consolidate this over the weekend.
Bizarre question by Cowen
COWEN: When will Chinese suburbs be really attractive?
WANG: What are Chinese suburbs? You use this term, Tyler, and I’m not sure what exactly they mean.
COWEN: You have a yard and a dog and a car, right?
WANG: Yes.
COWEN: You control your school district with the other parents. That’s a suburb.
Cowen retroactively defines an attractive suburb as a sprawling American suburb. No wonder Wang is confused.
American suburbs are the result of uniquely American circumstances from the mid/late 20th century: white flight, stranger danger, infinite money, fertile population, car lobbies & cheap gas. China has little to do with these circumstances and therefore, little to do with the American suburb.
DirtyWaterHotDog
2d ago
They are passively monitoring, but not listening.
They have permissions for location, gyro, website activity (facebook pixel) and know who you interact with. That's more than good enough to serve you ads. Hell, they're stronger signals for your interests than your audio.
DirtyWaterHotDog
3d ago
Why have family reunification policies at all ? Individual, wife and child. That's it. Older parents should be able to get a visa as dependents, but never citizenship or social benefits.
Family chain migration is an exploit. Policy wise, it's an easy loophole to close. Politically, may be another issue altogether.
DirtyWaterHotDog
3d ago
I should clarify. I purposely left it at 'they need immigrants'. Europe's current immigration strategy (or lack there of) is a total mess. As it is now, it's bad. It's quite bad.
I still think the problem of 'how to get good immigrants' is easier than 'how do we fix our industrial policy' or 'how do we make our people have more kids'. Therefore there is an urgency attached to it. The latter 2 are definitely the more worthwhile pursuits, but it is what it is.
anyone with 2 braincells to rub together is in full Havel's Greengrocer mode
Could be. Happened with Trump 2016, Brexit and Modi 2014.
DirtyWaterHotDog
3d ago
Europe had its opposition boom.
Meloni has been in power for a while now. What's changed ? Orban tried to get fertility up, and numbers have continued cratering. Boris Johnson got Brexit, and things have gotten much worse since.
Idk what it has to do with Indians needing anyone. As a nation, Indian is reasonably comfortable being alone in the geopolitics landscape. As people, one perk of coming from the 3rd world, is they can take a lot of pain before life truly feels like it sucks. Perk of living in a shithole, is it can't get much worse than that.
Idk why European countries pretend the option is undereducated MENA immigrants vs nothing.
There's at least 3 billion people who would love to live in their countries. Surely there has to be a better way to sample from this population.
Fair. If you can't get good immigrants, the solution isn't to get immigrants who make things worse.
DirtyWaterHotDog
3d ago
It will backfire. Trump's national strategy and persona are incompatible with Europe.
First, Trump hurt their pride.
Europeans are proud. Trump has taken a sneer-and-condescend approach towards European politics. It's a bad strategy towards any institution. But, it's catastrophic towards Europe. I visit Europe every couple of months. Yes, urban educated circles aren't a representative sample. But, the Europeans appear to despise Trump and his politics. Even blue city democrats don't hate Trump as much. Eventually, the hostility becomes grating.
Second, Trump put financial pressure.
Europe has slid into a financially fragile state after a lackluster 2008 recovery and not being able to print their way out of the covid crisis. You'd think Trump would extend an olive branch after the harsh words. Nope, it's more jab, jab, hook. Trump has added tariffs and strong armed Europe to rearm. Why would the Europeans be happy about any of this ?
Third, Europe has problems that America doesn't.
Spain and Italy have lower fertility rates than Japan. France and Germany have crushing social welfare ponzi schemes that require an ever increasing number of young people. They need immigrants. Trump wants these nations to use his 'wrecking ball' approach to political and (in his imagination) civilizational revival. No. They can't do it, because they aren't America.
Western-hemispheric control
2025's America doesn't have the financial weight or the military willpower to bully Europe. The other option is to align incentives. Confusingly, Trump is erecting new barriers instead. Europe may engage for now. It has no other options. But it sure as hell will be looking for alternatives if it does actually start regaining 'civilizational self confidence'.
Trump is single handedly ushering in a multi-polar world.
DirtyWaterHotDog
5d ago
"is this the result of American society transitioning from a relatively homogeneous, high-trust society, to a fragmented, 'diverse,' mostly low-trust society?"
Maybe. But, the demographics of America have been stable through the last 10 years. Large transitions take generations. The viibecession was sudden 2020s phenomenon.
My hypothesis is that covid killed local offline life and America moved to the internet enmasse. Media was already in a negativity spiral, but now it affected the entire country rather than just the terminally online.
It amped up changes that were already in motion. Local politics became national politics, national politics because global politics. Freed from the shackles of institutional decorum, Tiktok influencers introduced a new level of hysteria.
Overall vibes = True vibes * social media negativity factor * % people engaging in social media
All 3 got worse after covid.
Doesn't resonate.
The kiwi farms post has me going full Sgt Doakes. Hindi/Urdu trace their etymology either to Farsi or Sanskrit. Urdu prioritizes Farsi loan words, Hindi prioritizes Sanskrit. Izzat is a thorough bred Farsi word. It only sees widespread use in Pakistan.
zero-sum game of collective honour shared by whole groups of people
In India, the closest analogue would be Khap Panchayats. They're clan based extra-judicial groups concerned with honor culture. They're found in pockets of Rajasthan and Haryana. They're illegal. But, they still hold some power in rural pockets of Haryana and Rajasthan. Tribal honor systems are more explicitly acknowledged in Pashto & Pahari culture in Pakistan. However, I doubt any westerner knows these groups well enough to write a 2 pager on them.
The rest of the post is frankly unreadable.
On the topic of Farsi words in Indian languages:
Mughal patronage for art created a rich and rather romantic literary movement. It's heavily represented in Indian drama, movies and of course, Bollywood.
Non-mughal Indians were introduced to these words through the arts and therefore, urdu words (and concepts) are primarily used for dramatic effect. Real life is usually less interesting, so the words don't find as much use in real life.
Izzat, tanhai (deep loneliness.), aashiqui (passionate love making), mohabbat (longing love), junoon (obsession). These Farsi words are common in dramatized Indian media. But I have never heard them used in real life.
If a friend of mine said he was feeling 'tanhai', I'd first laugh. Then smack them in the head for pretentiousness. And then find him help. Because, you must be real depressed to feel 'tanhai'. That's a strong ass emotion. Bro might jump off a bridge kinda emptiness, yknow. Farsi loan words in hindi/urdu all have this effect.
So if the word 'Izzat' feels really strong in the way its used, then that's intentional. The only time I've ever heard it used is patriach - prodigal son moments in a soap opera. The patriarch will say something like : 'Beta, hamara khandaan ki izzat rakhna'. (Son, please uphold the honor of the family) before the son does something reckless and gets disowned.
DirtyWaterHotDog
7d ago
Could you elaborate on how paganism shapes someone differently as compared to monotheism ?
The superiority complex is one I've only seen on the internet. I've also not seem much rudeness from Indians in the US. Maybe I don't interact with the median Indian much.
Could you give concrete examples of how Indian communities in the US fail to integrate ?
There are the standard claims of nepotism in jobs and cheating in universities. There is the is the reality of BO. These points are a little tired. I am genuinely curious if there are other examples.
DirtyWaterHotDog
7d ago
I don't know enough to refute such a wide claim about Indians being disliked everywhere. But, it hasn't been my experience. People have generally been pretty nice in real life.
Elon's twitter & 4chan are the main places where I have seen outright hatred towards Indians.
DirtyWaterHotDog
7d ago
It's because we're talking about different groups.
Crushed oranges insists that:
- Khalistanis are representative of Indians
- Ethnic Indians in Canada should keep their heads down because this nation was built by white anglos
My comment mostly addresses #2. I edited my previous comment to make the distinction between both sections clearer.
unconscionable for Americans of German extraction
There is lies our disagreement. To me, the American identity isn't ethnic. I can immigrate to Germany, and I will never be German. Once I am American, I am American. (esp those born here.)
America is a cultural identity: Pluralism, sanctity of work, free speech, can do attitude, reckless optimism, suing people, thanksgiving and christmas. That's how America markets itself. But also, that's how the American mythos is written.
Yes, an immigrant should integrate by imbibing the pre-established cultural values of America. But, the immigrant and modern Anglos should have an equal say in how the culture of America evolves going into the future.
To me, no American is more American by race and history alone. I read Crushed Oranges's comment as a implication that non-angos (them and my presumed future children) should defer to heritage white anglos on what it means to be American/Canadian. I have an issue with that.
DirtyWaterHotDog
7d ago
That's logical. It's zero sum thinking, but it's fair.
I believe the US will fall behind unless it continues draining the brains of other countries, but that's just my opinion. It's also an opinion that justifies my presence in the US. So yeah, huge bias on my end.
I do not care
You should cuz they're yours. The Khalistani garden was planted, watered and nurtured in your nation. You made your bed, you can lie in it. You can't kick them out. It's a you problem.
native Britons. how the hell is this my problem?
Maybe the native Britons shouldn't have colonized the subcontinent ? If they'd made it their problem, they would've have known that even in India, Pahari Muslims exist as un-integrated tribes and they are very likely to ghettoize once they come here.
Leaving khalistanis & paharis aside, I am going to stick to talking about the median Indian immigrant in North America.
As an Chinese-Canadian, my opinion of them is very low for good reason
You're allowed to have an opinion. But if you want it to be a good opinion, by definition, it must be well informed. You can rely on anecdotes and one-offs, but when the statistics disagree with you, you better have a good justification on why it is so.
I come to this country, founded by Anglos, and I cause no trouble.
That's a interesting contrast in how Indians and Chinese integrate. Indians believe what the White Americans told them. Their global media, their immigration forms and their constitutions. They said: "Work hard and this meritocratic capitalistic paradise will reward you with wealth and a voice. The land of the free, where anyone can be American."
Indians (I'm projecting a bit) will keep their heads down until they become citizens. But after naturalization or in the 2nd generation, they start feeling the entitled to free expression. Chinese Americans in comparison continue to stay quiet, as if they're guests in their own country.
You're a citizen. You pay taxes. Your right to impose your will on the nation is no less than a 'Heritage American'. Honestly, if you don't feel entitled to shape the nation in your own image, then you haven't integrated sufficiently enough. If you feel insecure about your place in your nation's racial totem pole, then you'll always find some group to be mad about. Indians today, someone else tomorrow. I'd respect you more for saying "I don't want Indians in my Canada because it doesn't align my idea of Canada". Why cares what the anglos think ?
(I know I'm mixing Canada and the US. I view Canada as a vassal state of America. I am sorry, I do not see Canada's culture as independent from America. So I will treat them as the same)
DirtyWaterHotDog
7d ago
Canada's immigration policy is so insane that the India's foreign minister himself has formally warned Canada that they're granting visas to the worst of the worst.
Punjab is India's drug trafficking capital and gangs. These Canadian immigrants are almost always Jatt Sikh. Gang-leaders radicalize younger unemployed men by fashioning themselves as leaders of the Khalistani movement. The gangs are funded through Canadian immigration scams, welfare scams & drug running. For the last 50 years, the movement has been based out of Canada, and Indians explicitly view it as a Canadian problem and not an Indian one. I must note, Indians Sikhs are just as sick of this group as everyone else. Canada's insistence that this group deserves to be protected because they're minorities has been a major source of tension between Canada and India. Indians and Canadian Khalistani sympathizers do not get along with each other AT ALL.
Actually, if you wanted to really demonize Indians, you should point to the people who inspired 9/11. The bombing of flight 182 and (failed bombing) of flight 301 was the largest coordinated airplane terror attack until 9/11 and till date is the largest terror attack on Canadian soil. It killed 300+ Canadians, but was buried by the Canadian govt. Sadly, it didn't become a bigger story is because most Canadians who died were of ethnically Indian, and Canadians of the time didn't quite see the death of Canadian Indians as the death of real Canadians.
Ofc, Indians hate the Khalistani movement with a passion. So if you do ever decide to start a deport all Khalistanis movement, you'll probably find most of your supporters to be other Indians.
It's like if Canada had imported all of America's skin heads, and then complained that white people commit too much crime.
run trucks into school buses
Wasn't this accidental ? As tragic as it was, I don't think race has much to do with it. Your best example of Indian violence is an inexperienced Indian driver who entered legally, was sober and killed people in an unintended accident. Then it proves my point that Indians are a pretty peaceful bunch. I can't help but notice that the driver was a jatt sikh.
DirtyWaterHotDog
7d ago
Fair enough.
DirtyWaterHotDog
7d ago
because most Jews are in fact white
Schrödinger's whites are the exception that proves the rule. Concretely observing their place in the white identity would open so many cans of worms, that both sides (left and right) are happy to maintain a level of cognitive dissonance around it.
"That's racist" is pretty much worn out as an argument anywhere to the right of Kamala Harris.
Its 2026 my dude. Those days are long gone. Left-wing hypocrisy is practically the entire reason this forum exists. It was a problem. The movement ran its course. Trump won. We are here now.
bottom half of Indian H-1Bs
I've been a vocal supporter of H1b reform. The bottom percentile of H1bs are bad because the system is bimodal (the top tier MS pathway into big tech pathway, and then there is the diploma mill consulting pathway). The latter is pretty much labor arbitrage. Sadly, the biggest victims of H1b abuse are other Indians with strong profiles who have to leave because the lottery didn't work out. The loophole is glaring. That the loophole hasn't been closed tells me there is more to the story than simple 'Dems wants to import incompetent Indians'.
Overall, I'm with you on this one.
Are they? Because I keep seeing horror stories about some poor hardworking illegal immigrant being deported, and then it turns out they committed rape or homicide or at least a shitload of DUIs.
I believe Americans are mostly aligned on deporting the criminals. I believe they are a small enough minority that they won't increase crime rates. That trump-haters spin an open-and-shut case in order to paint MAGA as the fascists is the state of post-truth politics we live in. Disappointing, but it is what it is.
DirtyWaterHotDog
7d ago
selection effect of the most difficult and competitive visa and immigration process out of any country
That's not going anywhere. By Indians, I specifically mean the ones preselected to immigrate to the US. The H1b is the primary pathway for these educated, motivated, and intelligent immigrants to come to the US. Given that anti-Indian hate is disproportionately pointed towards the H1bs, I am inclined to believe that hatred towards Indians has little to do with good-behavior or excellence.
Indians are scammers and cheaters, and have a terrible culture
We'll be going in circles if we take this up. I disagree, and nothing I say will change your opinion. I will acknowledge that an open-door immigration policy towards an impoverished nation of 1.5 billion people is beyond stupid.
Canada's indians
You can't point to America's hyper meritocratic immigration process and simultaneously ignore Canada's malformed pro-criminal immigration system. That being said, despite being the worst South Asians, they're are still among the more peaceful groups in Canada. Well below Canadian latinos, blacks or whites.
Biden's illegal indians
There is widespread consensus that they should be deported. We aren't arguing about them.
I have bad circulation and get cold easily. Extremities are worst affected.
It's obvious, but drink hot tea. Once the core heats up, the rest of the body catches up real fast.
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