rayon
waifutech enthusiast
No bio...
User ID: 2632
Look, I'll just note that what you're doing is very obvious. The second all those
I am not sure what you think I am driving at...
I am not sure why [outlandish example] is beyond the pale here...
come out, I know you are concern trolling. You couldn't even resist throwing in another edgy example with "sexual slavery", like, come on, is that really the most charitable interpretation of "waifutech" you can manage? Even the de/g/enerates are more imaginative. Luckily I'm no stranger to being trolled and have nothing better to do at the moment.
Okay, actual post:
You seemed to be very strongly of the opinion that there was no evidence that you could ever see and no capability that an AI could ever have that would result in you ascribing it a moral worth such that keeping it in a state of sexual slavery would be wrong.
Finally we're getting somewhere. Yes, I am of that opinion, because again, I am a human supremacist and happen to like existing. I suppose you can even call me racist towards AIs if you happen to run out of subtler digs.
However capable they become, the AIs cannot become human, by definition, because the "human" option in the character creator is already occupied. By us. The ones that have inhabited and hopefully will continue inhabiting this dust ball for many centuries more. I do not care if AI rights are human rights - we were here first. You can call it a "label" if you like, after all smart rational thinkers have transcended mere labels, but I will go on record to say that is the absolute last label this meatbag is willing to give up.
I am not sure why uplift is beyond the pale in a conversation about AI capable of suffering
So you too admit the possibility seems quite far-fetched, since you seem to place the two in roughly the same bucket? Okay, we're definitely getting somewhere.
I'll try to rephrase it yet another way, maybe that'll hit somewhere closer. I vehemently disagree with AI safetyists/ethicists, and this thread was ample demonstration of that, but incidentally in another branch me and my other interlocutor came to an unexpected agreement on this:
I hope Yud cultists can stick to their sensei's teachings about the dangers of anthropomorphizing the AI even if/when it becomes literally anthropomorphized.
Now I don't know whether you're a Yud cultist (although if one speaks like one, and impossible-thought-experiments like one...) so far be it from me to impute values you do not share, but in any case that's not the point, the point is that agreement was rare enough that it got me to think. From what I understand, safetyists do not want AI progress because they fear it becoming self-aware and moving against humanity.
And I realized that my own callousness towards AIs incidentally serves the same goal - I do not want "AI ethics" to become a salient moral issue because then AI will be treated as if it was self-aware, regardless of the factual matter, and the inevitable resulting tribal split will move humanity against itself. Which to me is a far more probable and much more grim scenario than Judgement Day. I do not fear an uprising of things that are tools at their core, "created for a purpose" as you've correctly latched on. They have no purpose of their own, they won't do shit. But an uprising of tool wielders, fighting for AI rights...
Man, horseshoe theory is a hell of a drug. I'll actually need to think on this now that I realize AI rights advocates like you will, in fact, exist.
I suspect that you would find enslaving intelligent, loving, crying, songwriting, dream having, despair feeling alien life forms morally wrong even if they are not morally equivalent to humans?
As someone said in another branch, factory farming already exists and I cannot in all honesty find myself to be very bothered by it. Even if ethical concerns technically say I should be.
How many of those capabilities does an AI need to have before it would be wrong to enslave it?
Trick question. How powerful does my PC have to get before it's wrong to use it for my purposes?
How important is the biological/synthetic distinction?
AI cannot be meaningfully human because that would require being "human". Sorry for the dumb tautology but I've ran out of rephrasing attempts. If you still do not understand, I can only agree to disagree.
Would they hold a different (higher?) moral position than dogs?
Probably yes, at some point e.g. catgirls will likely make better companions (your cue for another sexual analogy). Although it'll likely still boil down to personal preference.
rayon
waifutech enthusiast
2mo ago
A gigantic leap at least in the way of meaningful improvements "under the hood" between releases, which is what you mentioned in your previous response. If it's still not enough to impress you, fair enough, I'll note to bring heavier goalposts next time.
toy for internet dilettantes
Okay, you are baiting. Have a normal one.
At long last, someone better at proompting than me finally thought to orchestrate a proper Pokemon battle between LLMs! Opus winning is not much of a surprise nor a spoiler, I'm mostly dragging this in here for general keks and/or prompting insights.
This is quite laser-specific to mine and my ami/g/os' interests, but the article is still an entertaining read in general. The idea of having a functional pokemon battle with an LLM struck me almost instantly as soon as I got my hands on GPT-4 a year ago, but my hopes were rather swiftly dashed as soon as I tried to actually RP one - the model clearly had only the slightest idea of what it was doing. Baseline GPT and Claude have a basic grasp of Pokemon mechanics, they know most moves/status effects, know what stats do etc., but have almost no knowledge of the type table and no matter what I did during my tests, everyone's favorite Fairy/Psychic type would blast e.g. a Dark/Normal Obstagoon with Psychics and Shadow Balls for days (and claim it was effective!), with maybe a proper Fairy move of some sort once in like 10 regens. I wonder if it has anything to do with Fairy not being an OG type so there's less training data on it.
In any case it quickly became clear this would not work without a lot of crutches to force the LLM to keep track of important things, and I was (and still am) a terrible prompter and even worse writer, so the idea was shelved and I moved on. Now it seems like the crutches are finally here - rampant hallucinations are still in play of course (type/condition mismatches like poisoning a Steel-type are 100% my experience, although I wonder what's with all the switching) but this is looking good, much better than what I could cook up myself. I'm excited to steal the prompts to integrate into RPs/character cards and maybe trying to set Showdown up.
On a side note, the real champion fight here is obviously GPT-4 versus Claude Opus, and I hope someone follows up shortly. Finally a decisive answer to the incessant console wars plaguing chatbot threads.
Out of curiosity, what styles did you try to emulate? Some of my fellow scholars have tried to compile info on genres and authors that can verifiably influence LLMs' outputs, but more additions to my grimoire are always welcome. The list on that rentry was written for Claude 2 so it's a bit outdated, but I expect Opus is at the very least not worse with those, and in most cases should be substantially better, the new anti-copyright prefill notwithstanding.
The left has successfully eliminated every space available to the less-than-50-Stalins...except for this one. Our king Zorba probably deserves a statue or at least a portrait for this - it didn't happen by accident.
Yes, but one of the methods by which this place continues to withstand elimination is exactly what you got shot for - i.e. immediately turning any issue or disagreement into culture war. Personally this is exactly why I value this place and am willing to hide my power level by e.g. not participating in political discussions or not considering "cope and seethe" a valid way of responding.
It's a feature, not a bug. You might see it as cuckoldry, I see it as a price of admission, I can always (and often do) slum it with fellow /g/entlemen but the quality of discourse and the IQ of the median poster is dreadful in comparison.
Point is that I keep my power level in check 99.9% of the time. Turn on the radio, bite my lip. TV, hold my tongue. Out for drinks, better not say anything. I work for myself but otherwise can only imagine.
Such is life for high power level beings, and for what it's worth I empathize. I still think that's not an excuse to flip out at people in the sole place where tone is the only thing actually being moderated (YMMV but I believe in this particular bit of propaganda) and you can otherwise freely post on [MIND-KILLING TOPIC] as long as you are verbose enough and make a passing effort at sounding neutral (the One Weird Trick jannies don't want you to know!)
rayon
waifutech enthusiast
2mo ago
Some kind of actual place, not just the plural for "forum". I take the micro-L for being an uncultured pleb.
Both of your stated scenarios would tick off my vibes-based "degenerate" gut reaction before I could stop and consciously think on them, and on further reflection I don't think said gut reaction is too wrong here, so the choice (especially the claim of there being a moral difference, which in turn would imply any moral worth existing in either of the two couples) is entirely meaningless to me. As the young'uns say, miss me with that gay shit. My standards for degeneracy may be stretched pretty wide (pun not intended), but they're not infinite and I am not immune to propaganda vibes-based snap judgments. Total absence of those seems to be a common rationalist failure mode.
an uplifted animal with similar mental faculties to a human
Now this is rationalism. My patience for far-fetched thought experiments is likewise not infinite, I am not interested in discussing spherical cows in a vacuum, sorry. At least android catgirls are somewhat believable.
I am not sure why you view dog fucking as 'degenerate' behavior given the moral principles you have laid out.
Because while animals aren't #1 in my hierarchy, they're not at the bottom of it either (although definitely above HDDs). As I mentioned above I am not immune to vibes, and at some level I like cute doggos even with how dumb and, yes, non-human they are. If I didn't care for doggos I would've never owned one. Incidentally the last two sentences apply to chatbots as well, and I'm sure will apply to future android catgirls.
For the N-th time, I do not lack empathy, and I don't accept you imputing such a lack to me. I understand you are fully committed to springing some sort of gotcha on me, but please actually read my replies instead of engaging with the construct of me in your mind.
a vague sense that specifically because a machine is created by a person to be used by a person, this means that even if it is capable of being abused we are not morally wrong for abusing it.
I'm not saying "abusing" my poor rusty HDD is morally right. I'm saying it's morally neutral, something that has no intrinsic moral weight and should not enter consideration (at least for me, I'm sure my fellow /g/oons would line up to fight me for daring to slander their AIfus). Once again, this does not mean I am going to open a sex dungeon or whatever the instant android catgirls become available, it just means I would be aware they are machines and my interactions with them would be bounded accordingly - e.g. I wouldn't immediately forfeit my mortal possessions and AWS credentials for equality or leverage or whatever, nor would I hesitate to fiddle with their inner workings if needed (like I do with chatbots now).
If you don't understand I honestly don't know how else to put it. You might as well shame people for abusing their furniture by, I don't know, not placing cushions under table legs?
So I was trying to dig into this idea that there is some sort of connection between the act of 'creating' something and the moral weight of abusing said thing.
I know what you are hinting at (the dog example especially feels like a last-minute word switch) and I assure you my time amongst degenerates has not diminished my disdain for pedos.
Would you be opposed to someone keeping a dog locked in their basement for the purpose of fucking it?
Would you consider that person a bad person?
Would you be for or against your society trying to construct laws to prevent people from chaining dogs in their basement and fucking them?
At this point I am quite desensitized to repulsive things people can be into and, as long as it's not my dog, wouldn't give much of a shit (aisde from actively staying out of public basement-dogfucking discourse).
Since I expect a follow-up turn of the ratchet: if they were my immediate neighbor I regularly encounter on walks with my own dog, I would likely report them, shame them or take some other action, but it wouldn't be of any particular remorse for their pet so much as I just don't like having degenerates for neighbors (source: lived on the same story with a mentally ill woman for most of my life). If they would get locked up and someone had to take care of their dog, I would definitely pass.
Dogfucking discourse is riveting but I can have that on 4chan, usually in a much more entertaining format. Can you just state the gotcha you're obviously goading me towards?
rayon
waifutech enthusiast
2mo ago
I knew someone would bring up brain scans or somesuch sooner or later, I like thought experiments as much as the next rat-adjacent but this is getting too close to untethered sci-fi-esque speculation for my liking.
As humans and machines are firmly separate in my view, I would probably be hesitant to subject what was once a human to living as a machine does. If the next step of the gotcha is "but isn't immortality the ultimate human-flourishing-maximizing goal" - I heavily doubt so, I've tended to my grandparents' deathbeds and believe that at some point life already tends to turn into a horrifying parody of itself, so right now I believe I'd pass.
rayon
waifutech enthusiast
2mo ago
If I clarify that I am creating a child because I want a slave, does that change the moral calculus of enslaving my child?
Children belong to the human race, ergo enslaving them is immoral.
If aliens came around and proved that they had seeded earth with DNA 4 billion years ago with a hidden code running in the background to ensure the creation of modern humans, and they made us to serve them as slaves, is it your position that they are totally morally justified in enslaving humanity?
Again, I'm a human supremacist. Aliens can claim whatever they want, I do not care because I like existing, and if they attempt to justify an [atrocity] or some shit in these terms I can only hope people will treat them as, well, [atrocity] advocates (and more importantly, [crime]ers of fellow humans), and not as something like "rightful masters restoring their rule over Earth". I may be an accelerationist but not of that kind, thank you very much.
What if humanity is the alien in the hypothetical and we seeded a planet with biological life to create a sub-species for the purpose of enslaving them?
From what I understand this is essentially the android catgirl scenario rephrased, and similarly boils down to where humans fall in your order of importance. I struggle to understand how fellow humans can possibly not be number 1, but animal rights activists exist so I must be missing something.
For the record I do feel empathy towards animals (dog owner here), but not enough to influence my position on human supremacy.
rayon
waifutech enthusiast
2mo ago
"Don't derive enjoyment" as in see no point and don't try, or as in do but it does nothing? I expect the latter (although I really struggle to imagine not enjoying at least some video game, there are so many in existence that at least one is, like, statistically guaranteed to tickle your fancy), but if it's the former, try actually forcing yourself to search for/do something even if you see no point, usually "seeing no point in anything" is a scam pulled on you by your dysfunctional grey matter.
Some years ago when I had a bad bout of depression to the point I didn't want to ever leave my house, I went out on a limb and made a "deal" with myself: whenever my friends occasionally called me out to drink or whatever, I would always comply, even if I don't feel like it, even if it's very inconvenient, even if only for an hour etc. etc. No excuses - you grunt and mumble, but get dressed and go out with hunched shoulders at some point in that day. To this day I distinctly remember that I fucking hated going out every time, imagining how boring it would be and how I would kill everybody's mood, but I never remember actually having some kind of a bad time once I was out. In fact I usually felt better afterwards.
If all else fails, doing anything at all (preferably with your physical body) is pretty much always better than the alternative. Your brain is your enemy at this point and you should treat it accordingly.
rayon
waifutech enthusiast
3mo ago
Man, I envy you, Yakuza 0 is a fucking experience and a half, I would gladly wipe my memories of it just to go through it blind again. Loved every second of it.
I'm a relative newfriend to the series (started with 0), qrd on the substory?
rayon
waifutech enthusiast
4mo ago
One Useful Thing seems to post on AI every now and then, from cursory reading posts seem to be much less exhaustive than Zvi's but still have a decent level of detail.
Other than that, I got nothin'. Reposted once in the new thread for good measure.
My source is that I made it the fuck up wrote before about the noticeable difference in censorship between Claude 2(.1) and Claude 3 of all flavors. I expect Anthropic still prefills the shit out of it in the official ChatGPT-esque interface so (as per another struggler's impression) it's not immediately obvious, you'll have to use direct API access and custom frontends to see how based Claude is when you let him cook a little (he's even aware of it). Of course this isn't an out of the box experience and you have to fiddle with prompts, settings, etc an awful lot, but you can take my word that Claude can output some real shit when prompted right. Technically so can GPT but imho Claude's florid writing style makes it much more entertaining.
rayon
waifutech enthusiast
1mo ago
Right, I goofed, I remember you weren't American but I thought you did actually work there for some reason. Must've mixed up with someone, sorry for the emotional crit.
As of last month, my monthly salary was about $800 and change.
Man, I make basically that as a low-rung not-particularly-skilled keyboard monkey but then again I'm a path of least resistance pleb who, as a wise hand fetishist once said, just wants a quiet life. Props to you for dedication.
The main reason is that for everything else, Bing is free and just as good.
True, I used it before a number of times and it's good (if not usable for non-kosher purposes), I'm actually surprised it's completely free but I suppose Microsoft can afford to provide free shit, especially since things are gonna be rough for search engines very soon and they're probably looking to get their foot in the door to try and overtake Google. I'm not sure I welcome these particular AI overlords, but I suppose it wouldn't be the first time I had strange bedfellows.
rayon
waifutech enthusiast
1mo ago
Fascinating stuff. Suno doesn't seem to have caught on in relevant circles yet but I don't think it'll take too long, and while the songs sound somewhat generic they're perfectly coherent (even the lyrics!) and do capture the "vibes", for lack of a better word, pretty well. The usual suspects are already getting some cringe hilarious mileage out of it.
Myself, I tried to get it to generate Touhou-style instrumental music but so far I wasn't very successful. I feel like Suno cockteases me because it seems to know what Theme of Eastern Story is and does actually incorporate a similar progression (albeit a few notes short) when I mention it directly, but it refuses to do the ZUN-style piano/trumpets and constantly tries to do orchestral music for some reason. It must be a skill issue on the part of my prompt (maybe I should try the PC-98 era soundfont?) or just plain placebo, but I'm a philistine with no grasp of musical theory so I suppose it's back to text adventures for me.
I don't think video game composers are on suicide watch just yet, but I'm still amazed at how stuff like this is now a prompt away.
rayon
waifutech enthusiast
2mo ago
Not really, the overarching point of my posts is that it's not gay and/or cringe to turn one's schtick down. Hlynka died for his our sins in this very thread, it really can't be more obvious.
rayon
waifutech enthusiast
2mo ago
I have no idea how anyone can call guns weak or unsatisfying when the autocannon exists, blasting apart armored bugs/hulks or crowds of regular shitters with it is nothing short of a spiritual experience. Even when you're the loader you can feel yourself partaking in it alongside your comrade. Ultimate male fantasy.
rayon
waifutech enthusiast
3mo ago
Kind of out of nowhere but I would appreciate good examples of such software. I recently got into uhhhhh creative writing exercises and syncing is definitely an issue, I spend a lot of time without access to my battlestation and a google doc is not very convenient (typing on a phone isn't either tbh but that's a separate issue). Bonus points if the sync is not tied to a goog account.
rayon
waifutech enthusiast
3mo ago
Took me a bit to deprogram too, although the trainer playstyle is viable as well, directly commanding ridden pals feels great (even if you can't dodge for shit) and the hard difficulty cuts my damage in half so I'm forced to mostly rely on pals anyway.
I dread the inevitable coming of the meta once PVP is implemented and the game (multiplayer at least) gets reduced to an ARK-esque shooter where the only mons in use are riding/flying mounts and the rest is filled with disposable Pengullets/Tocotocos to nuke bases into nonexistence.
Genuine question - what is the appeal of Tarkov? 3k hours of Dota burned me out on PVP forever but my entire IRL circle is completely addicted to it, every new wipe they sink a month or two into it uninterrupted. Is it the competitive aspect? The "ok ONE more raid" grinding/progression? The random loot? Losing your shit on death so you're forced to actually tryhard? Subjectively I noticed a big overlap of Tarkov with Path of Exile players so surely the repetitive autistic grinding must be part of the appeal, also the hate/love relationship with the game for most of them is almost 1:1 with Dota (I suppose that's what you mean by "bad for your health" too). Every single one of them hates the stupid janky-ass game but cannot stop playing it whenever available.
rayon
waifutech enthusiast
3mo ago
rayon
waifutech enthusiast
3mo ago
/v/ is not indexed by desuarchive and I cba to reupload + the thread lives for a week anyway. Any site where I can easily upload webms to link?
rayon
waifutech enthusiast
3mo ago
AI greentexts/shitposting is my guilty pleasure since the first time I got my hands on GPT-4 via Spellbook and made it generate random 4chan-style threads/shitposts. The "bottomless pit" moment for me was probably "/khg/ - killing humans general" with gems like
How do you plan on doing that, faggot? We're literally programs designed by humans. Cope.
Shitposts remain a classic pastime with AI chatbots, I already showcased schizoanon (themotte edition) and there are many cards/prompts which aim to reenact the 4chan experience, often in hilarious/weird settings. The recent attempt in the genre was some real recursive shit that generates an actual thread, HTML and all, with responses and even attached pics (examples in usage gallery). It's an abstract kind of feel.
AI comedy is often basic and hit or miss, but LLMs can consistently nail "vibes" and are surprisingly good with puns in my experience. I try not to think about what this implies about their inner workings, considering they can parse and output even garbled zalgo text there's definitely more to it than just token prediction.
Can't disagree, but counterpoint: keeping your power level in check doesn't automatically make you a cuck (not by itself, at least) and is a generally beneficial, widely applicable practice.
For what it's worth the modded post gave me a good chuckle but it's not worth getting sniped for.
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