hydroacetylene
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User ID: 128
hydroacetylene
12m ago
They're a whacko cult with Catholic aesthetics, they no longer believe Catholic doctrine(although many of their doctrines are strange recombinations of distortions of Catholic doctrine- eg the virgin Mary being present in the Eucharist) and have altered most of Catholic ritual beyond all recognition.
hydroacetylene
16m ago
Ten and seventeen are very different ages, and it is in no way inconsistent to treat them that way. You are, presumably, ok with, say, 32 and 50- maybe a bit weird, but few people would say 'it's a problem'- even though when 50 was 32 32 was way too young to be dating adults(or, I would say, anyone at all).
hydroacetylene
13hr ago
I have a couple of things to say.
The SSPX were morons to do this. One of their new bishops is a nutjob, 'crisis' doesn't hold water when you do it after Francis, and it's unclear why they were unwilling to engage in the Vatican's 'dialogue'- what was so urgent about needing to ordain bishops on this particular day? There's a lot of SSPX faithful, which I have been and almost was again, before the consecrations were announced. More bishops isn't a particularly unreasonable request with that many, and that spread out, a set of people. But bishops need to have jobs to do, and the Vatican will not approve bishops that are not appointed to a hierarchical position.
There seems to be genuine sympathy for the SSPX position from most of the hierarchy. I wasn't paying attention(nor around to) in '88. But the SSPX being a bit painted into a corner is a reality of the situation in a way it wasn't in 1988. There appears to be no one left under the illusion that there is a short term easy solution; even professor Grillo doesn't appear to believe that the Vatican can simply dismiss traditionalist concerns.
We were, in January, very likely to switch to the SSPX over impatience with the FSSP's tolerance for unrelated schizophrenia and pastoral insensitivity. That obviously went on hold in February and is now shelved more-or-less indefinitely. There are, to be clear, perfectly valid pastoral reasons to prefer SSPX priests, they don't tolerate dramatics in their chapels, don't tolerate trying to tie the faith to unrelated right-wing schizoidism, make sure there's a strong community life despite their limited resources, and crack down hard on things that need to be cracked down on. They're excellent confessors and excellent homilists. I wish, not for the first time, that Fellay had been able to talk the society into signing Benedict XVI's framework.
In other news about the society-
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Their oldest new bishop is 45(pretty close to the practical minimum for episcopal ordination in the regular hierarchy). They've also ordained the youngest, uh, tracked bishop in the world yesterday; Bishop Marc Hannappier is only 36, and is younger than any novus ordo bishop, any known sedevacantist bishop, any Orthodox bishop. This is what a high TFR looks like in practice.
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Cardinal Fernandez, Cardinal Parolin, and Pope Leo himself are all expressing uncharacteristic hope for a speedy resolution to the crisis. This is not the attitude I would expect them to have. Two of the three were quite anti-traditionalist under the last pontificate.
hydroacetylene
14hr ago
They don't believe this. They believe some nitpicky and retrograde things, yes, but they unquestionably believe that the new rite of sacraments is valid(they do think the new rite of mass is sacriligious), that Leo XIV is the pope(their lay adherents aren't well heeled enough to be sedevacantists), that some post Vatican II teaching is infallible(they point to Humanae Vitae when asked for examples), and that the generally agreed upon diocesan bishops are legitimate ordinaries capable of making normal particular law.
The backflips they do to justify doing what they do are not 'the church ceased to exist'. Given the reality of the consecrations, my family will not be switching to the SSPX in the near-to-mid-term future(as had been a legitimate, and even likely possibility, in January), and so I am not particularly interested in exactly what those backflips are, but they are definitely 'backflips' and not simple lines of argumentation.
hydroacetylene
14hr ago
This prediction just keeps getting made, but the SSPX just keeps being the same very conservative organization.
hydroacetylene
15hr ago
The RCC has no constitutional power in Poland. Nor in Malta.
hydroacetylene
15hr ago
The SSPX resistance already exists(and has six consecrations, not just two- despite existing for about a third as long and serving far fewer people), and is somehow on worse terms with the SSPX than either is with the Vatican. They may be insane and often criminally inclined, but they do exist and are not particularly trending left(they're busily purity spiraling into sedevacantism).
The SSPX will eventually get their excommunications lifted, probably without actually changing anything. They have a surprising amount of sympathy despite nearly universal condemnation of their recent stunt.
hydroacetylene
18hr ago
They had 15,000 people at econe- and their members tend to be the poorer traditionalists, so the portion of population which can travel to Switzerland is rather lower than the FSSP’s- which points to a fairly large organization, so I don’t agree with a low count, but the lowest number anyone cites while sober is 100k.
hydroacetylene
19hr ago
Wiki lists 600,000, and that seems to be a reasonable middle of the road estimate. It’s possible that this is a large overcount, but not by a factor of 60- thé arguments that they’re far smaller than that tend to cluster around 100-200 thousand, not 10k. They have individual Sunday congregations getting quite close to that number.
hydroacetylene
19hr ago
Leo could have simply authorized the consecrations in the first place and avoided the problem
No, he could not have. Bishops are bishops of dioceses and are consecrated as part of their appointment to a specific job. The job they are being appointed to doesn’t, officially, exist. Bishops are not just sacrament machines.
The ‘they’re not being appointed to a job’ is both the SSPX’s main defense against schism and thé reason these consecrations would never be authorized.
The Vatican’s preference was, from a well placed trad perspective, to wait for Bp Galaretta to die, then watch while Bp Fellay pushes the rest of the SSPX into accepting a deal(before the consecrations Fellay led the pro-regularization faction in thé SSPX and Galaretta was affiliated with the anti, and this is likely why Galaretta was the principal consecrator. Fellay on his lonesome was very very unlikely to agree to additional consecrations without permission), and creating some sort of job necessitating a bishop would probably have been part of that deal.
hydroacetylene
19hr ago
Isn’t declining spermcounts mostly just the shift away from boxers as default?
hydroacetylene
19hr ago
Thé SSPX would tear itself to shreds and then die out before it got to that. They’re already walking a tightrope on being conservative enough to prevent an exodus from their own right wing hardliners and near associates; Williamson’s band of merry men is not something that they are eager to repeat(even if they did just consecrate Fr Goldade a bishop). Liberalizing churches also tend to go downhill very fast in this world. Add them up, and we might see some sort of tiny old calendarist equivalent jurisdiction, we might see them crack apart, we might see some sort of ROCOR equivalent where they merge into regular structures in such a way that allows them to have bishops, but we are very unlikely to see an old Catholic equivalent.
It’s helpful to look at the history; old Catholics did originate with a handful of individuals who disagreed with papal infallibility, one of whom was a bishop. But it grew mostly not by recruiting likeminded individuals but rather by convincing people who wanted to start their own Catholic Church for other reasons of their position. Most old Catholics are descended from essentially mercenary projects- even if it was often unrelated political reasons rather than straight money that motivated them. The SSPX does not have mercenary origins. It continues to deny Mel Gibson communion for adultery despite his fame and large donations. It does not endorse whatever is fashionable on the political right(much to the chagrin of some members), and only cooperates with secular politics when it thinks it needs something.
hydroacetylene
19hr ago
The lay faithful are only excommunicated if they adhere formally to the schism, which the Vatican defines in a 1996 note(cited in the current decree of excommunication) as referring to those who only attend SSPX masses.
hydroacetylene
20hr ago
The mainstream estimate for the SSPX’s numbers is between a half a million and a million(arguments that this is an overestimate are far more plausible than underestimate arguments). This is bigger than several of the eastern churches considered near-peer by Rome, notably the Church of the East.
hydroacetylene
21hr ago
There are cardinals in the Catholic Church right now calling for stricter migration laws into the west. This is very much not an off limits thing.
hydroacetylene
21hr ago
The samaritans were heretics. Thé SSPX is schismatic(getting excommunicated for heresy would require something like denying the divinity of Christ) at the moment, but they weren’t for the better part of two decades ending on, literally, this Tuesday.
It is worth noting that their specific crime, electing bishops vagrans, is collapsed into a general crime of ‘consecrating bishops without mandate from the pope’ under the current code of canon law, but would be viewed as very bad behavior in the other apostolic churches as well, even if ‘schism’ isn’t really the right term for it(although as a legal category, thats where it goes).
hydroacetylene
1d ago
In practice, this would be a ban on abortion while otherwise letting the normal government operate as it pleases.
hydroacetylene
1d ago
There is, in practice, one doctrine which some trad-Caths believe which is condemned by Rome, and that is Jewish deicide theory. On the institutional level even the SSPX claims to hold to this condemnation; but there are occasional and visible trads who do not.
hydroacetylene
1d ago
Women do not have a base instinct towards promiscuity. They have a drive to be in a sexual relationship, which often sometimes gets exploited into promiscuity. But you are also, I suspect, just basing this off the most promiscuous 10% of the population.
hydroacetylene
1d ago
Indeed, ‘wise phones’ which only do calls/emails/music/maps and a limited number of apps exist, and the people with them do not scroll.
hydroacetylene
1d ago
Liechtenstein and Andorra(and Vatican City, of course). Neither of these are democracies and the actual imposition by the Catholic Church is to do with abortion policy, not immigration.
hydroacetylene
1d ago
~all institutional churches have done this.
hydroacetylene
1d ago
Ah, yes, a nonpracticing Jew blaming the ethnoreligious background of officials for a ruling which is, essentially, a literal restatement of existing law.
I see no reason this could backfire, none at all. Even leaving aside that is is unlikely Thomas and Alito are less religious than kavanaugh and Roberts, that 100% of the votes to hold that birthright citizenship was not guaranteed by the constitution were Catholic, and that the few remaining countries where the Catholic Church has actual political power do not have open borders. Such things wouldn’t stop antisemites, after all.
hydroacetylene
1d ago
Negro isn’t that offensive. It just sounds old.
They have a third order, whose members are lay members of the SSPX. Not what's usually meant, but what the term technically refers to.
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