This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
The problem is that the sequence of thought in Paul goes against your idea of remnant + corporate salvation. Paul begins the topic in Romans 9:3 introducing unsaved Israel. “I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people […] It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” (1A) Occam’s razor is that when explaining why God’s promises still apply, we should provide the most inclusive reason. If corporate Israel is predestined to convert, that is the most inclusive reason for why God’s promises weren’t reneged but still apply (“Did God void his promise to Israel? No, they will one day convert as a nation, and some of us already converted”). Paul mentioning the small remnant would only be a minor part of the explanation which has nothing to do with most of God’s promise and most of Israel. But the remnant is the only thing talked about when asked “did God’s word fail?”. Again, in Romans 9:24 we have the perfect time to talk about some predestined corporate salvation, but this point is not brought up.
When Isaiah is quoted, Paul includes the words that speaks of completion and finality, which he did not need to include but which are included for a reason. “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality.” Those who are not of the remnant have a final sentence, being foremade as “vessels of destruction” which Paul speaks about. When Paul specifically answers the question, “did God reject his people” in Romans 11, he again speaks in terms of a remnant, rather than something like ”God will save all his people in the end”. He quotes Elijah, where God says he has kept 7000 only of Israel to save.
The root is God, or even Christ who is preexistent (hence “the vine”). Ethnic Israel cannot be both roots and “broken branches” as branches cannot be a root.
I recall a certain person who called the the Pharisees who believed they were children of Abraham “children of Satan”. There is indeed a predestined children of Abraham, but there are also those who claim to be but are not.
It is not found in the church fathers. Read what Melito or Origen have to say. Hence, it is not found in traditional or historic Christianity, per my post.
Another thing that must be understood is the corporate theory relies on a passage which is predicated on a mystery. When Paul speaks about mysteries they always defy a literal understanding, for instance —
“Mysteries” require us to think more about things. The “mystery” that Paul introduces should not be taken in its most literal, unthinking form.
Augustine talks about the corporate conversion of Israel at the end of the age. I don't think it gets much more Church father than Augustine.
I'm not sure how the following defies a literal understanding. He's just talking about the resurrection and the transformation of believers when Christ returns. It's a "mystery" because it's strange and incomprehensible to the pagans of the time.
Augustine says
And there’s 200 years from Melito to Augustine where there is never mention of corporate salvation
Well he says:
(There is a list at that link of various church authorities over the centuries who have spoken of a corporate conversion of the Jews at the end of time, including Origen.)
Tertullian says,
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link