Transnational Thursday is a thread for people to discuss international news, foreign policy or international relations history. Feel free as well to drop in with coverage of countries you’re interested in, talk about ongoing dynamics like the wars in Israel or Ukraine, or even just whatever you’re reading.
Transnational Thursday for January 25, 2024
- 33
- 4
What is this place?
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
If in doubt, please post it!
Rules
- Courtesy
- Content
- Engagement
- When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
- Proactively provide evidence in proportion to how partisan and inflammatory your claim might be.
- Accept temporary bans as a time-out, and don't attempt to rejoin the conversation until it's lifted.
- Don't attempt to build consensus or enforce ideological conformity.
- Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
- The Wildcard Rule
- The Metarule
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
NATO Updates
Turkish parliament has finally signed off on Swedish ascension to NATO. I had worried if the recent flareup of attacks by the Kurdish Workers Party would derail things but the measure seems to have sailed through.
Which leaves only one holdout:
Meanwhile, NATO has finally finalized a contract to continue supplying Ukraine with ammunition:
According to Reuters, Turkey got permission to buy F-16s in exchange for allowing Sweden to join NATO: “Ankara's delays had frustrated some of its Western allies and enabled it to extract some concessions. But Flake, who was envoy throughout the process, said Sweden addressed Turkey's "very legitimate security needs" in that time.”
https://archive.is/iMYgT#selection-1903.0-1926.0
I totally understand why things shook out this way--but I also think this will be interpreted, in Russian foreign policy circles, as evidence that some of the stuff Putin has been saying about NATO being a threat, is true. After all, this is letting a border country join NATO in exchange for selling fighter jets to yet another border country...there's a reason Russians think NATO is threatening their borders.
Sigh.
If something is confused why Russian neighbours decided to get into NATO as soon as possible and thinks that reason is NATO being aggressive against Russia...
Then they consumed far too much Russian propaganda or they are trolling.
If they do not want to be shot down by Turkey again I would recommend not flying their war planes without permission within Turkey.
The reason is that Russia confused "blocking expansion of Russia when it is done by starting wars and invading other countries" with "NATO is threatening their borders".
More options
Context Copy link
There's nothing particularly unusual for Russian FoPo folks to react from the F-16 deal, they know Turkey is part of NATO and there's a long history of us selling them fighter jets and tens of billions worth of arms - the recent pause is more of an aberration.
It isn't just "Turkey is a NATO member". Turkey had been fighting proxy wars with Russia in Syria and Armenia-Azerbaijan (although Russia has now largely abandoned Armenia) and has been selling Bayraktar drones to Russia's enemies (rather famously including Ukraine) in large quantities.
Historically, the Ottoman Empire was the permanent hereditary enemy of Russia. As far as I can see Russia and Turkey have been friendly for about 30 years out of the last 500 (the 1920's and the immediate post-Cold War period).
count Napoleonic wars, too
I wanted to check that out, and it turned out to be harder than it looks - wikipedia lists the Ottoman Empire as fighting on both sides of the Napoleonic Wars! Russian-Ottoman relations during the period of the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars are, appropriately, Byzantine. But they seem to be on the same (anti-French) side by accident from the time Napoleon invades Egypt in 1798 until the Ottomans attack Russia opportunistically in 1806. So add another 8 years if you count countries that happened to be fighting Napoleon at the same time for different reasons as "friendly".
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link