site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 15, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

There are more or less dangerous incarnations of gain-of-function. The most dangerous is testing animal viruses on humanized mice, evolving them to be proficient at infecting human tissue. This is of that kind, as was the stuff Daszak was doing in Wuhan. He admitted as such in a tweet: https://usrtk.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/50-SARSr-CoVs.png

There's no need for strict, legalistic accuracy: the US has drone-striked and tortured people on much hazier grounds like 'some Afghans said he was a terrorist' or 'there were weird-looking tubes in his car'. The definition of terrorism swings around like a weather-vane in a hurricane, depending on who's serving who's interests at any given point. You can be arrested for thoughtcrime if you stand still too long, silently praying, near a UK abortion clinic. Trivial matters get grossly authoritarian treatment.

Daszak, Bat Lady and the humanized mice brigade aren't serving anyone's interests. They're not creating vaccines for real viruses killing in real time, they're conjuring up new threats. The best interests of humanity are served by liquidating them and sending a clear, unambiguous message that this sort of thing is not to be tolerated, no matter what word-games are played it'll lead to a sticky end.

They're not creating vaccines for real viruses killing in real time, they're conjuring up new threats.

Those threats exist, they just haven't reached the human population yet. It sounds like your position is that surveillance for pandemic-potential viruses shouldn't be done as you believe it's not worth the risk, and we should instead wait for the spillover to happen before studying a virus? Does this include not studying known pandemic-potential viruses like H5N1? Who defines what counts as a distinct virus (the link you gave talks about "SARS-related CoVs" after all, and was posted well after the SARS spillover)? Actually, until you've collected and analyzed the viruses, how do you even know if there's novel ones in your sample; should we stop collecting viruses from non-humans all-together? What about research on viruses affecting agriculture (see H5N1)? Or maybe I'm drawing the line at the wrong place and you think no research should be done with humanized animal models, in which case I don't know how you're going to develop any vaccines.

Those threats exist, they just haven't reached the human population yet.

No they don't exist or at least they didn't exist until they were artificially created by the GoF brigade. An animal virus is not a threat (except for farmers), an animal virus that infects humans is a threat.

surveillance for pandemic-potential viruses shouldn't be done

It should be done but surveillance does not equal creating pandemic-potential viruses, which is what they did and what they're still doing all over the world.

we should instead wait for the spillover to happen before studying a virus?

Yes, this is how cause and effect works. We can only study a virus after it emerges.

Actually, until you've collected and analyzed the viruses, how do you even know if there's novel ones in your sample; should we stop collecting viruses from non-humans all-together?

Collect them, study them, don't stick them in humanized mice and make them dangerous to humans!

you think no research should be done with humanized animal models

Go read my last paragraph again, Daszak wasn't conducting vaccine research because vaccine research can only be done after the virus emerges. The idea that these people are going to predict what viruses emerge and have vaccines ready for them is insane. There are so many potential combinations of dangerous viruses and not nearly enough money to develop vaccines for them.

And even if they did pick the right viruses and do preliminary research, it still isn't helpful. Vaccine development is quite fast already, the issue is with safety, testing, mass production, logistics and politics - not the basic science.