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So since I didn't advocate for an explicitly white America but a multiethnic one, why do you insist my views are white nationalist?
Seems that when the progressives argue for black and other groups for the nationalism of multiple ethnic communities, you are willing to excuse and justify it. And even justify how we treat the racist discrimination on the basis of the pretense of being about equality of outcome.
You are just making excuses and framing things inaccurately when saying that their agenda is just about equal outcomes.
In reality, to directly discriminate against a certain group and be honest about doing so, should qualify as less racist than to try to destroy it as a group, discriminate against it and then falsely claim about how this is promoting equality.
Excuses and falsities (i.e. lies by at least some who promote them) are a greater moral affront.
The current agenda of the progressive/liberal establisment represented by the Biden administration as well is a mixture of a black supremacist, Jewish supremacist, and anti-white supremacist ideology that celebrates and promotes the destruction and not representation and mistreatment of the white ethnic group. It also celebrates the identity of the groups it approves of.
This also effects demands and activism (recently, we have had Jews and ADL arguing about Jews being underepresented in Hollywood!)
Of course this kind of activism does not lead to any sort of equality, and you can't have that if you treat certain groups as inherently illegitimate.
It doesn't even lead to equality of outcomes, which I certainly don't accept means that such goal makes those promoting it to NOT be racist supremacists. Certainly there is no sincere, consistent attempt to promote equality of outcomes
Well, dude, you clearly support progressive racist double standards and deny using the accurate term racist supremacist for them.
You want to throw labels at others while not accepting any labels for the progressive faction. Which is fair to say when you try to characterize my own positions with a label.
When in fact it is that faction that has the racist supremacist agenda and directly promotes an agenda specifically to replace their ethnic outgroup, which they also deny any representation of its rights.
Why don't you try to claim the negative characterizations for the progressive side? Why not try to claim the label anti-white racist?
Well, whites existing is normal, it doesn't need a label.
When it is reclaimed by people including you, using it in more neutral terms, maybe we can speak again.
But even then, people should not have to identify with said term, to have that position.
Plus, another reason why someone doesn't have to do it, is because there might exist people on the right that think that to oppose said agenda someone must be as edgy and far right as possible, while would result in a smaller coalition.
The truth? We don't have to do what you want, and you promote on purpose marginalizing and sticking a term that has the effect of character assassinating your opposition because you know these tactics have been effective so far.
If you are unwilling to accept accurate but negative descriptions of your faction, we should be unwilling to accept negative, pejorative descriptions for those who don't oppose the rights of your ethnic outgroup.
People have been ineffective in opposing progressive extremism and impotent precisely because they have been afraid of being stigmatized.
This is such a strong force that it is very uncharitable and poisonous to the discourse behavior to try to label your opposition, as a response to the racist double standards of the progressive side.
Victory through one sided character assassination.
So if someone wants to accept a label? That doesn't necessarily prove them an extremist. If someone doesn't fine as well. In fact, I would expect to have ideologically more in common with those who don't, if they also strongly object to this agenda I also object towards.
But I am not against those who want to try to reclaim the term and treat it as more moderate than what you imply it to be.
You are unwilling to accept negative terms instead of reclaiming it, and so should others do for this term. You are using it as a pejorative.
White nationalism does not accurately capture my views because I am not uniquely a nationalist for whites (in regards to thinking they uniquely deserve nations) and I primarilly identify even more so with my specific ethnic group, and see groups like white Americans in part as foreigners. I also would consider excessive white nationalism that is the mirror image of your ideology, of say supporting colonizing non white countries and treating the natives as an illegitimate people, as something to oppose.
Typically people who self identify as white nationalists are more unconditionally pro white than I am, while my thesis is more conditional to opposing anti white racism. I would side with say Iraqis is a white group invaded their land to colonize and make their land theirs. This isn't to say there aren't people who identify as white nationalists, who aren't moderates. Frankly, what label you use to describe yourself is more flexible, and understandable if you are a moderate.
Another aspect of this is the idea of a race uniting as a common ethnos, of which I am not in favor. But this isn't to say there shouldn't be solidarity, or understanding of commonialities, especially when it also coexists with a broader civilization. Or even closer cooperation in say entitities like European Union and a combination of a common identity with a particular ethnic identity.
Of course in the current circumstances even an extremist on the right who doesn't share my views but goes much further, and is atypical of the main opposition to the side I am arguing against, is still someone who is arguing in a situation where the more pervasive side is the anti-white one. It would make zero strategic sense to focus on them as the primary problem.
In such a situation, I would consider that kind of person to ideologically fit as the opposite extreme of the ideology of the progressive faction which is a very extreme racist supremacist faction.
Part, but certainly not entirely of my motivation comes comes from an internationalist perspective, but also accurately describing reality. It is simply not true that european rights is an exclusively white nationalist aspect. To label it as such, helps promote a false understanding of reality. And I explained this previously which you didn't adequetly respect in your response. In fact your response was to typically be extremely dismissive towards valid racism extremism of progressives and try to label me with a term used as an extreme pejorative, while also implying that white nationalism = USA white ethnostate which I didn't argued in favor of.
So, if we are going to use labels, people who support the replacement, illegitimacy, and discrimination against europeans should simply admit their agenda is incompatible with international justice, but are antiwhite. And there are other more serious negative labels that could be used that would be accurate. Or that, if you are going to so easilly argue that this is white nationalism, then you should accept that internationalism is also in part white nationalist too.
Moreover the agenda of people who support the nationalism of oppressed identity groups to such extreme extend that they don't make room for the rights and nationalism of europeans, is an extreme nationalist agenda, for a coalition of ethnic groups.
Nationalism as a term is understood in two ways
A) Anything that has to do with treating nations as legitimate, and supporting a nation. b) Defined as meaning a chauvinist, an excessive nationalism.
In that sense, the progressives agenda aligns fully with the very excessive nationalism for their ingroup and with zero nationalism for their outgroup. While opposing said agenda doesn't do this.
Personally, I had the normal views that were not in favor of europeans and other broad groups going extinct for my entire life, before i was even aware that such views might be categorized as white nationalism. Of course, I also thought that groups should care even more about their own group being victimized, but I also consider it proper to oppose such agenda in general.
When I first encountered the more marginalized then activists promoting such views, I had the correct and common view that such far left activists are dangerous very unreasonable extremists. Those who want to sneakilly promote Noel Ignatiev's agenda should have a repuation as negative as Noel Ignatiev deserves and has in some circles.
This is how the majority of say the majority of French who want France to remain French, and made by the French people (who are a European ethnic group) think.
I consider the logic of having to justify and excuse of not being ok with an agenda to racially replace and culturally genocide a collection of ethnic groups belonging to a broader civilization and race, as remarkably twisted. That you have to justify why a group should have organizations representing its interests too.
It is reversed where the outrage out to be, and who should be put on the defendant's spot to justify the unjustifiable.
Frankly, the whole framework of USA of treating this as white nationalism, when adopted to europe leads to unproductive paths.
I also noticed a quasi-commoniality between some neonazis and these antifa progressives in that both want the fight to be about neonazism vs their ideology. The first, to promote neonazism, and the later to promote this extreme antiwhite racist, utterly destructive ideology, by pretending that it is nazism or not. It would be incredibly destructive and an aid to the worst type of far left extremism that has a very bloody historical trajectory to let things be defined in such manner.
When this whole ideology and way of thinking and language is absent, the sane position that respects european rights is more prevalent.
And I have observed this way of thinking infecting things in europe as well. With far left extremists promoting the game of framing the continuing existence of their ethnic outgroup as extreme far right.
Clearly, some ethnic groups are more legitimate than others in the current situation where this faction of progressives have this influence, and rather than accept this aspect, you are trying to win by denying it and playing the attack.
So, in conclusion, one can oppose antiwhite racism by just being a normal person, and from many different perspectives, while adopting different labels, or none for this.
Labeling the moderate position that whites have rights too and treating it as a pejorative with such charged history of being framed as extremism promotes a false understanding of reality in aid of far left extremism.
Normal here, still implies an ideology. But it is the normal ideology of people who thought that different ethnic groups including europeans have a right to exist and to respect the rights of others. And such people also identified and identify more with their particular ethnic group and broader civilizational family, such as western civilization. I find this way of thinking prefferable, than succumbing to the extremist faction of the far left.
Where we have a more pressing need, towards a sizable faction is in using the label of antiwhite racist and others is in regards to those whose agenda is the destruction and mistreatment of Europeans. This faction has unique huge double standards that necessitate to label them accurately and negatively.
A more neutral sounding term for such uglier agenda like cultural marxist would be a label that is also accurate.
While the normal and moderate position does not fit under any one label. It philosophically encompasses a wider space, and more accurately labeled with terms such as the reasonable perspective. And the one you choose to use because of the usefulness of attaching negative framing to opposition can carry different connotations does not accurately grasp the nuances of the normal and the ethical position. There is the history of completely uncharitable framing. But it doesn't just entail european rights which it does but can also mean but not necessarily so european rights in a more unconditional manner. Hence why moderate nationalisms that respect reciprocally other groups rights is more in line with what I advocate, but also doesn't just have to be described in such manner. It would be accurate and reasonable to also treat that Europeans too have rights as the default normal ethical position. Because it is so, and it was so. Conversely the "european ethnic groups are people too and is extremist white nationalism and uniquely evil" is an example of a more fanatical and unreasonable position promoted by extreme activists.
Now, once the moderate position that Europeans count too wins and the agenda that claims "they are not indingeneous actually" should not be tolerated, or exist, there is actually even then significant gray areas and room for debate.
Things would have moved in a more sane and ethical position. But not all issues are solved. Reasonable people who share common ethical priors can then try to find common ground and the correct view in said gray areas. This framework is not one that only people who identify as white nationalist, or are white, or even identify just as whites belong too.
Frankly, it should involve people who think both Europeans and non European ethnic groups should exist as legitimate groups with their own homelands and continuing cultures. Where nations do decide as their constitution actually say (and what label does this imply for those objecting) in many countries, to pursue the rights of their people. While still respecting the rights of other countries and avoiding doing things like trying to colonize them for example. International Justice of a world of different nation states primarily, and some multiethnic entities which also should not have an agenda that treats Europeans (or any other such broad group of ethnicities) as illegitimate.
While the ridiculously extreme agenda that favors the destruction and mistreatment of Europeans and slanders and dehumanizes those not following the party line would be seen as a bad nightmare, like Stalnism.
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