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If I understand you correctly, your claim is that:
Is this accurate, or would you like to correct my interpretation?
Liberals as a tribe has the issue of playing a motte and bailey between opposing ethnic nationalism in general and calling identifying with it as racist, and also actually do support tribalism for their own favorite groups. They also do this for sexes. They see the nationalism for their preferred groups such as blacks, Jews, Palestinian as legitimate, while they inconsistently promote the ideology against nationalism. This inconsistency doesn't change who pushes the motte.
To take a position that is anti-ethnic identity is still in line with a left wing tradition and ideology. Whether promoted by communists, marxists, and others. The left has also promoted this ideology against any other collective identities than those defined by the left, or doesn't prioritise what they care about. The collectivism of individualism ideal, is a left wing ideal, not a centrist ideal and not a right wing ideal.
But even that part of the left had those who made a different evaluation of oppressor ethnic groups and oppressed and that related to how the left evolved.
Even if one pushes consistently an opposition of ethnic, religious, group identity, this is in fact a left wing ideology. Even if the left/liberals as a faction are in fact as a majority, and as their pervasive perspective not consistent.
Supporting ethnic nationalism only for white people as legitimate, I would consider as extreme far right. Not of course equally extreme, or even necessarily extreme for someone to prioritize white rights and be a white advocate.
In general, for any groups I do think too intense activism should be assumed to be typically immoral if your group has been getting substantial victories in favor of it at expense of others.
While to oppose nationalism only for white people should count as the extreme far left. No matter how many people who identify with this want to frame their perspective as moderation. Which unfortunately, even I rhetorically understate sometimes, due to its pervasiveness among current liberalism/leftism. As well as the fact that you can get in trouble if you are too blunt. An extreme faction becoming more influential does not change its characteristics. The USSR as an example was not a country run by moderates when the Bolshevics were the only game in town. We need to actually evaluate whether the perspective is lopsided in one, or another direction.
It is both moderate and right wing to think that white people have legitimate ethnic communities too. But in terms of identification, it tends to attract people who identify more as right wingers in certain countries. But is in fact the moderate position.
If we have to rate things on a slider from oikophobic to overly nationalist, a perspective that tolerates ethnic communities is not a controversial perspective. And also when it is inclusive of Europeans too.
It is those parts of the left I mentioned that have had a strong objection to that while others compromised with them when they went along. And of course, there are also people who oppose what I argue and oppose rights for their right wing ethnic outgroup from an explicitly ethnonationalist perspective who know they are being machiavelian about it, or actually fit more with the right in their own country.
But such populations can still support the left when abroad.
This shows the limitations of the political spectrum when it comes to nationalism, since someone's ethnonationalism for their own country which fits more with the right there, can be more compatible with the left in the context of foreign politics.
Thanks for taking the time to explain.
What, concretely, do you mean when you say white people have legitimate ethnic communities? As in, there are physical communities in the USA that should be able to exclude non-whites? Or even non-physical communities/cultural...events, or what-have-you that are necessarily white rather than race-blind mainstream American?
To lay some cards on the table, what you're arguing seems to be that most conservatives are some flavor of white nationalist. I assume at the mild end of the spectrum you describe, this is less blood and soil rhetoric and more 'it's okay that my tabletop game club is made up entirely of white men' or 'the president should be white as the USA is a majoritarian white country.'
I just don't think it is true that progressives or liberals oppose nationalism specifically for white people. Japan may be a fargroup for progressives in the US and as such doesn't receive much attention, but I've certainly heard people express discomfort at their attitude towards foreigners/non-Japanese and a national identity built on race. Any kind of nationalism built on race makes progressives and liberals deeply uncomfortable.
Furthermore, I don't believe that conservatives writ large support carveouts and national-identity/community building based on race. Perhaps I'm typical minding, perhaps my mental model is wrong and you're right - I'd honestly encourage you to tighten up your argument to something more concise and write a top-level post to see what people think so we can get more data.
If most conservatives do explicitly believe in nation and community building based on race, would you agree with progressives that call them white nationalists? And your argument is simply that being a white nationalist isn't a bad thing, because to you progressives are black/asian/hispanic nationalists?
That there should be white organizations representing whites interests. That, in the USA non explicitly white organisations and people not representing whites in particular, should see the white American ethnic community as a core group, which is interests are legitimate and important part of what they ought to represent.
Outside the USA that should also be the case.
That the idea that this is evil should be taboo and treated as racist. The hysteric reactions and cancel culture on the issue should simply not exist. There also should be more intolerance for antiwhite ideology, including of this type.
That extremely antiwhite ngos should stop be tolerated to remain as pervasive as they are. How this ends up being done can be lead to discussion, or your imagination.
In general both the white and non white organizations and general organisations representing the interests of any groups should not be as extreme as say the ADL is today.
That race replacement in media depictions should stop.
That immigration should be opposed openly on the basis that it replaces white people (and also others like blacks). I also think white Americans in particular are key part of the historical american nation, and this should be recognised. That there should be an attempt to raise birth rates of historical American nation, and others of historical USA,so they don't become extinct in their own country. Also mass deportations of illegal migrants.
Frankly, as a country that has had already plenty of migration the identity of historical nation and the identity of newcomers is hard to create a common ground.
This isn't antithetical to in addition to the ethnic identity that there would also be a common American identity. But it can not be expected to be an one sided affair and would require non whites to respect whites, as well as white progressives to respect their own ethnic community.
This idea that tribal identity is an obstacle to a common identity but only for a particualr people is bankrupt. The USA is already a multiethnic country that promotes that the cohesive whole is part of multiethnic.
I generally have stronger views for european countries, which is not necessarily unrelated to not being American. Agency problems are real with nations. However part of it is that for most of them most mass migration is very recent and much of it from illegal migrants. I am not the man of all solutions of everything that must be done in the exact detail but I can certainly tell in a broad level that whites as a legitimate category of ethnicities rather than being designated by amnesty international as non indigenous is the more moral path.
Maybe some of the details of how far that entails can be debated. But it is definitely the case that targeting them to deny them such rights is a very destructive path.
What organizations like amnesty international are doing claiming that europeans are uniquely not indingeneous people is an agenda that leads to genocide, meaning extinction. It leads also to mistreatment and people becoming hated minorities in their own countries, while the foreign population boasts of conquering them.
Since you have been asking questions and asking if it is fair for progressives to be calling others as white nationalists, let me ask my question in the same manner.
Do you think that progressives who have massive double standards and might in fact support making minorities or even the extinction of white people, are not racist? Couldn't such agenda be accurately labeled as anti-white racist supremacy?
Is someone who either supports or tolerates the existence hateful identitarian organizations, and mainstream organizations that promote the same agenda and large double standards and stigmatizes whites in particular, not in fact nationalist to an extreme degree for various progressive identity groups?
It is not the case that conservatives will choose race to be what nation and community is based upon. Ethnic communities that see their group as legitimate to pursue their interests in their favor are already treated as a core part of the USA. Race is already what ethnic communities are based upon, and are treated already as a legitimate basis of American identity. Especially non white groups. Hell, in a schizophrenic manner this applies to a very limited extend for white identity, since it is both allowed and not allowed. Both a group, but also it is bad for it to be a group. And it was the basis of white American identity even more so in the past. America is already a nation that understands it self as separated and comprised of different ethnic communities based on race. It is just the main one is not allowed the same rights and treatment than the other ones.
Absolutely not. I think progressives calling others white nationalists as pejorative towards any legitimate white ethnic identity should be treated as an example of them engaging in extremist racism and this behavior ought not be tolerated. It is an uncharitable conduct that stigmatizes white ethnic groups in particular and their advocates.
It is a slur as it is used, so it shouldn't be tolerated.
If the term is used in sufficient number in a non charged and abusive context, then it might become more legitimate. But it is bad conduct to be used in this manner.
This framing of white nationalism can justify destroying all european countries/people. So if someone opposes it and think their people shouldn't go extinct and shouldn't become a minority in their own homeland they are just called a white nationalist under an one sided culture of critique.
When actually it is the more moderate position, and was more so before the progressive's fait accompli due to mass migration happening. Although for european countries it is easier still for most because most mass migration is recent and less rooted. Some like Denmark have been succeeding in paying them to leave, as well as cutting. But of course the Danish had been ruled by moderate nationalist variety of parties, including a social democratic one. Describing them as such is less charged than calling it white nationalism. The connotations more accurately fit what the Danish are and did.
White nationalism as a term has been poisoned too much by abuse and hateful intolerance towards the legitimate human rights of white ethnic groups to allow progressives, or others who use it as a pejorative to throw the term around to characterize others who support the human rights of Europeans.
Moreover, I don't actually support limitless nationalism. Nationalism as a movement can results in excess, while opposition of nationalism and intolerance of said nation as a movement results in excess against said nation. Nationalist movements can be extreme or associated with it. White nationalism is especially uniquely stigmatized with extremism and it is also why it would be erroneous to label it as white nationalism because the connotation is that promotes an idea of a world of rights for whites only which isn't what I am advocating for. This isn't to say that all people who do self identify with the term are white supremacists in the way the later is associated with white nationalism.
The reality is large % of people support their continuing existence as a people, and this has been even more so in the past. And applies even more in European countries. These people tend to also not like fascism. The associations that the term white naitonalism has been used to be associated with and their ideology are different.
Nobody is calling anybody to implement the full agenda of the most extremist weakman you can find.
Fundamentally, I would rather different nation states which are homelands of their ethnic groups continue to exist, and have a perspective that see it as justice to oppose the destruction of even foreign nation states. Ideologically, I am pushing for treating as legitimate the interests of your own group. For you to prioritize your own group. But also to treat other groups same interests as legitimate.
This also applies in the case of the family unit. People should prioritise the interests of their own direct family and work for their well being and prosperity. Nothing unjust of ist for doing that, even if the family also has been under attack. Which also entails property rights to be respected and not allowing everyone into your home. Good fences make for good neighbors. Simultaneously they should recognize the same rights of others and try to seek their own prosperity not by acting like the mafia stereotype of destroying others in a predatory manner.
Many europeans do think on the way I frame things, against their extinction as a group.
American conservative base oppose the great replacement and are part way there in the way I advocate but have been influenced in part by the cancel culture on the white issue. There is still a substantial difference between much of the conservative establishment which doesn't oppose it, actual conservative base that does, and progressive/liberal movement that supports the anti white agenda, including replacing their white outgroup. It is also true that American conservatives who are pro white are less racist than progressives in terms of how much they respect different group rights. The agenda to replace and discriminate white people is the racist pervasive agenda of our time. While opposing this is the moderate option.
Progressives in the broad sense should stop throwing names around towards those rightfully opposing their extreme destructive double standards and be self critical of the extremism of their own position. In fact in terms of how much bias they have for their preferred groups and against their white outgroups, their position is the destructive and extremist one, if we compare and contrast.
Brother, you can ask me all the questions you want. Generally I don't volunteer my opinions that often as they rub people the wrong way, but if you're polite I'll probably answer anything.
I don't believe that progressives are calling for white genocide. You can probably find some people on twitter making jokes about how they hope all white people die in a fire, which I frown upon, but I don't think it's the same thing. Assuming you mean something along the lines of demographic trends and immigration meaning that white people will be a minority in America at some point this century, I don't believe it's an explicit agenda a la Great Replacement Theory. I agree that some people would cheer at those trends which I also find distasteful.
The phrase 'anti-white racist supremacy' doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But sure, if you come up with some other negative term to describe people cheering on white people dying or being outbred then I would likely agree with using said term.
No, I don't think they are 'Black nationalist' in a meaningful way. As far as I'm aware, the vast majority are not advocating for an exclusive 'Black America' based on race, they are advocating for equality of outcomes in (what they see as) a biased system. I also would dispute the language you use to describe them, although without examples (beyond the ADL) it's difficult for me to say.
But yes, I would denounce someone who supported the black equivalent of the KKK or stormfront.
The word 'faggot' was a pejorative for a long time, until it was reclaimed. Whether progressives consider it a pejorative is orthogonal to the actual definition of the word and whether you think it accurately describes the worldview you're describing. If you think 'white nationalism' doesn't accurately describe your views, then what view would constitute white nationalism and what would you call your views instead? But I assume you do agree with the accuracy and just object to the fact that most people think white nationalism is a bad thing based on:
I had always been skeptical when progressives called conservatives and the MAGA crowd white nationalists, but here you are, espousing views that I think broad, bipartisan swathes of America would call white nationalist. I suspect that the vast majority of American conservatives disagree with your worldview, and in the old place, when this topic was discussed, the defense was invariably that 'no, conservatives don't actually believe those things.'
I disagree with the base assumptions of this statement on multiple levels, as well as most of the rest of your post, but this is already getting too long for both of us.
So since I didn't advocate for an explicitly white America but a multiethnic one, why do you insist my views are white nationalist?
Seems that when the progressives argue for black and other groups for the nationalism of multiple ethnic communities, you are willing to excuse and justify it. And even justify how we treat the racist discrimination on the basis of the pretense of being about equality of outcome.
You are just making excuses and framing things inaccurately when saying that their agenda is just about equal outcomes.
In reality, to directly discriminate against a certain group and be honest about doing so, should qualify as less racist than to try to destroy it as a group, discriminate against it and then falsely claim about how this is promoting equality.
Excuses and falsities (i.e. lies by at least some who promote them) are a greater moral affront.
The current agenda of the progressive/liberal establisment represented by the Biden administration as well is a mixture of a black supremacist, Jewish supremacist, and anti-white supremacist ideology that celebrates and promotes the destruction and not representation and mistreatment of the white ethnic group. It also celebrates the identity of the groups it approves of.
This also effects demands and activism (recently, we have had Jews and ADL arguing about Jews being underepresented in Hollywood!)
Of course this kind of activism does not lead to any sort of equality, and you can't have that if you treat certain groups as inherently illegitimate.
It doesn't even lead to equality of outcomes, which I certainly don't accept means that such goal makes those promoting it to NOT be racist supremacists. Certainly there is no sincere, consistent attempt to promote equality of outcomes
Well, dude, you clearly support progressive racist double standards and deny using the accurate term racist supremacist for them.
You want to throw labels at others while not accepting any labels for the progressive faction. Which is fair to say when you try to characterize my own positions with a label.
When in fact it is that faction that has the racist supremacist agenda and directly promotes an agenda specifically to replace their ethnic outgroup, which they also deny any representation of its rights.
Why don't you try to claim the negative characterizations for the progressive side? Why not try to claim the label anti-white racist?
Well, whites existing is normal, it doesn't need a label.
When it is reclaimed by people including you, using it in more neutral terms, maybe we can speak again.
But even then, people should not have to identify with said term, to have that position.
Plus, another reason why someone doesn't have to do it, is because there might exist people on the right that think that to oppose said agenda someone must be as edgy and far right as possible, while would result in a smaller coalition.
The truth? We don't have to do what you want, and you promote on purpose marginalizing and sticking a term that has the effect of character assassinating your opposition because you know these tactics have been effective so far.
If you are unwilling to accept accurate but negative descriptions of your faction, we should be unwilling to accept negative, pejorative descriptions for those who don't oppose the rights of your ethnic outgroup.
People have been ineffective in opposing progressive extremism and impotent precisely because they have been afraid of being stigmatized.
This is such a strong force that it is very uncharitable and poisonous to the discourse behavior to try to label your opposition, as a response to the racist double standards of the progressive side.
Victory through one sided character assassination.
So if someone wants to accept a label? That doesn't necessarily prove them an extremist. If someone doesn't fine as well. In fact, I would expect to have ideologically more in common with those who don't, if they also strongly object to this agenda I also object towards.
But I am not against those who want to try to reclaim the term and treat it as more moderate than what you imply it to be.
You are unwilling to accept negative terms instead of reclaiming it, and so should others do for this term. You are using it as a pejorative.
White nationalism does not accurately capture my views because I am not uniquely a nationalist for whites (in regards to thinking they uniquely deserve nations) and I primarilly identify even more so with my specific ethnic group, and see groups like white Americans in part as foreigners. I also would consider excessive white nationalism that is the mirror image of your ideology, of say supporting colonizing non white countries and treating the natives as an illegitimate people, as something to oppose.
Typically people who self identify as white nationalists are more unconditionally pro white than I am, while my thesis is more conditional to opposing anti white racism. I would side with say Iraqis is a white group invaded their land to colonize and make their land theirs. This isn't to say there aren't people who identify as white nationalists, who aren't moderates. Frankly, what label you use to describe yourself is more flexible, and understandable if you are a moderate.
Another aspect of this is the idea of a race uniting as a common ethnos, of which I am not in favor. But this isn't to say there shouldn't be solidarity, or understanding of commonialities, especially when it also coexists with a broader civilization. Or even closer cooperation in say entitities like European Union and a combination of a common identity with a particular ethnic identity.
Of course in the current circumstances even an extremist on the right who doesn't share my views but goes much further, and is atypical of the main opposition to the side I am arguing against, is still someone who is arguing in a situation where the more pervasive side is the anti-white one. It would make zero strategic sense to focus on them as the primary problem.
In such a situation, I would consider that kind of person to ideologically fit as the opposite extreme of the ideology of the progressive faction which is a very extreme racist supremacist faction.
Part, but certainly not entirely of my motivation comes comes from an internationalist perspective, but also accurately describing reality. It is simply not true that european rights is an exclusively white nationalist aspect. To label it as such, helps promote a false understanding of reality. And I explained this previously which you didn't adequetly respect in your response. In fact your response was to typically be extremely dismissive towards valid racism extremism of progressives and try to label me with a term used as an extreme pejorative, while also implying that white nationalism = USA white ethnostate which I didn't argued in favor of.
So, if we are going to use labels, people who support the replacement, illegitimacy, and discrimination against europeans should simply admit their agenda is incompatible with international justice, but are antiwhite. And there are other more serious negative labels that could be used that would be accurate. Or that, if you are going to so easilly argue that this is white nationalism, then you should accept that internationalism is also in part white nationalist too.
Moreover the agenda of people who support the nationalism of oppressed identity groups to such extreme extend that they don't make room for the rights and nationalism of europeans, is an extreme nationalist agenda, for a coalition of ethnic groups.
Nationalism as a term is understood in two ways
A) Anything that has to do with treating nations as legitimate, and supporting a nation. b) Defined as meaning a chauvinist, an excessive nationalism.
In that sense, the progressives agenda aligns fully with the very excessive nationalism for their ingroup and with zero nationalism for their outgroup. While opposing said agenda doesn't do this.
Personally, I had the normal views that were not in favor of europeans and other broad groups going extinct for my entire life, before i was even aware that such views might be categorized as white nationalism. Of course, I also thought that groups should care even more about their own group being victimized, but I also consider it proper to oppose such agenda in general.
When I first encountered the more marginalized then activists promoting such views, I had the correct and common view that such far left activists are dangerous very unreasonable extremists. Those who want to sneakilly promote Noel Ignatiev's agenda should have a repuation as negative as Noel Ignatiev deserves and has in some circles.
This is how the majority of say the majority of French who want France to remain French, and made by the French people (who are a European ethnic group) think.
I consider the logic of having to justify and excuse of not being ok with an agenda to racially replace and culturally genocide a collection of ethnic groups belonging to a broader civilization and race, as remarkably twisted. That you have to justify why a group should have organizations representing its interests too.
It is reversed where the outrage out to be, and who should be put on the defendant's spot to justify the unjustifiable.
Frankly, the whole framework of USA of treating this as white nationalism, when adopted to europe leads to unproductive paths.
I also noticed a quasi-commoniality between some neonazis and these antifa progressives in that both want the fight to be about neonazism vs their ideology. The first, to promote neonazism, and the later to promote this extreme antiwhite racist, utterly destructive ideology, by pretending that it is nazism or not. It would be incredibly destructive and an aid to the worst type of far left extremism that has a very bloody historical trajectory to let things be defined in such manner.
When this whole ideology and way of thinking and language is absent, the sane position that respects european rights is more prevalent.
And I have observed this way of thinking infecting things in europe as well. With far left extremists promoting the game of framing the continuing existence of their ethnic outgroup as extreme far right.
Clearly, some ethnic groups are more legitimate than others in the current situation where this faction of progressives have this influence, and rather than accept this aspect, you are trying to win by denying it and playing the attack.
So, in conclusion, one can oppose antiwhite racism by just being a normal person, and from many different perspectives, while adopting different labels, or none for this.
Labeling the moderate position that whites have rights too and treating it as a pejorative with such charged history of being framed as extremism promotes a false understanding of reality in aid of far left extremism.
Normal here, still implies an ideology. But it is the normal ideology of people who thought that different ethnic groups including europeans have a right to exist and to respect the rights of others. And such people also identified and identify more with their particular ethnic group and broader civilizational family, such as western civilization. I find this way of thinking prefferable, than succumbing to the extremist faction of the far left.
Where we have a more pressing need, towards a sizable faction is in using the label of antiwhite racist and others is in regards to those whose agenda is the destruction and mistreatment of Europeans. This faction has unique huge double standards that necessitate to label them accurately and negatively.
A more neutral sounding term for such uglier agenda like cultural marxist would be a label that is also accurate.
While the normal and moderate position does not fit under any one label. It philosophically encompasses a wider space, and more accurately labeled with terms such as the reasonable perspective. And the one you choose to use because of the usefulness of attaching negative framing to opposition can carry different connotations does not accurately grasp the nuances of the normal and the ethical position. There is the history of completely uncharitable framing. But it doesn't just entail european rights which it does but can also mean but not necessarily so european rights in a more unconditional manner. Hence why moderate nationalisms that respect reciprocally other groups rights is more in line with what I advocate, but also doesn't just have to be described in such manner. It would be accurate and reasonable to also treat that Europeans too have rights as the default normal ethical position. Because it is so, and it was so. Conversely the "european ethnic groups are people too and is extremist white nationalism and uniquely evil" is an example of a more fanatical and unreasonable position promoted by extreme activists.
Now, once the moderate position that Europeans count too wins and the agenda that claims "they are not indingeneous actually" should not be tolerated, or exist, there is actually even then significant gray areas and room for debate.
Things would have moved in a more sane and ethical position. But not all issues are solved. Reasonable people who share common ethical priors can then try to find common ground and the correct view in said gray areas. This framework is not one that only people who identify as white nationalist, or are white, or even identify just as whites belong too.
Frankly, it should involve people who think both Europeans and non European ethnic groups should exist as legitimate groups with their own homelands and continuing cultures. Where nations do decide as their constitution actually say (and what label does this imply for those objecting) in many countries, to pursue the rights of their people. While still respecting the rights of other countries and avoiding doing things like trying to colonize them for example. International Justice of a world of different nation states primarily, and some multiethnic entities which also should not have an agenda that treats Europeans (or any other such broad group of ethnicities) as illegitimate.
While the ridiculously extreme agenda that favors the destruction and mistreatment of Europeans and slanders and dehumanizes those not following the party line would be seen as a bad nightmare, like Stalnism.
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I am possibly misunderstanding you here, but it sounds like you are saying you would consider “it’s okay that my tabletop game club is made up entirely of white men” to be a mild form of white nationalism. If so, and if that is the standard liberal view, the inferential gap between liberals and conservatives on this subject is frankly too large to overcome. No conservative I know would have the slightest problem with an all-white group of friends hanging out; they wouldn’t consider it racist, wouldn’t consider it an example of white nationalism, and would most likely think of anyone who disagrees as the genuine racist.
As far as I can understand, he would call that the moderate position, no?
I'm assuming that tabletop community would be a 'legitimate ethnic community.' But even that is fraught - if it's recognized as a 'legitimate white ethnic community' and a black person wants to join, what happens? If you just happen to have a board game group that happens to be all white I think progressives would ding you on not being inclusive enough but not call you a white nationalist, if you happen to have a white ethnic board game group that would actively exclude others based on race, then I think you deserve the label of either racist or white nationalist, no?
What if it was an exclusively black or Indian or Chinese, etc, etc. club? Which would be acceptable and why? What about subcategories of white, like Irish or British or French?
To lay my own cards on the table, I am not white, and I think forming exclusive clubs of this sort are in poor taste at best and would rather they not exist. But we do not live in that world.
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