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PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   25097 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 25, 2023

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I didn’t say anyone is "bad." I was describing their possible motivations, not their moral value as people. For example, Trump was right to say that there were "very fine people on both sides" at Charlottesville; in fact, the vast majority were probably perfectly fine people. Even James Fields's actions were perfectly understandable, even if they were morally wrong. I have known of ]gang members who have done terrible things, but who are not terrible people](https://oaklandvoices.us/tag/lam-vo/page/2/). Whether a person's actions are wrong does not mean that the person is a "bad person," and indeed with some exceptions, claims about the moral worth of individuals are meaningless, at best.

  • -15

I didn’t say anyone is "bad."

I didn't say that you said anyone is bad. I modded you for violating the rule against weakmanning. Since you were apparently confused by the shorthand, here is the rule in its entirety:

There are literally millions of people on either side of every major conflict, and finding that one of them is doing something wrong or thoughtless proves nothing and adds nothing to the conversation. We want to engage with the best ideas on either side of any issue, not the worst.

Post about specific groups, not general groups, wherever possible. General groups include things like gun rights activists, pro-choice groups, and environmentalists. Specific groups include things like The NRA, Planned Parenthood, and the Sierra Club. Posting about general groups is often not falsifiable, and can lead to straw man arguments and non-representative samples.

Avoid posting solely about gaffes, misstatements, or general bad behavior from prominent people. Discussing policy implications is always fine, and concrete criminal or impeachable offenses are also fair game. For example, "Look at Congressman Jones being a jerk" is not OK; "congressman Jones is under suspicion of taking bribes" is fine, as is "congressman Jones's employment law is bad for these reasons . . ."

Sometimes we get good discussion about the consequences of gaffes, misstatements, or general bad behavior; for example, "here's Congressman Jones being a jerk, let's talk about the underlying reason why congressmen do this sort of thing regularly". In most cases, these should stand as valuable posts regardless of whether they refer to Congressman Jones or not.

Links to news stories should generally follow the above rules, although cannot be expected to adhere to them exactly. For instance, a news story which uses an anecdote to introduce a concept is OK (this is a very common framing discussion), a news story which is about tweets from non-prominent people reacting to some event isn't ok.

You broke that rule, and in particular the group under discussion was this forum, which I am particularly protective of, as we have discussed.

Don't.

I didn't say that you said anyone is bad.

Yes, you did: "Do not weakman in order to show how bad a group is."

If ascribing motives to people who post here is considered against the rules, fine. But I suggest clarifying that in the rules, because the rule you quote explicitly endorses ascribing motives to the common behavior of groups: "let's talk about the underlying reason why congressmen do this sort of thing regularly".

I didn't say that you said anyone is bad.

Yes, you did: "Do not weakman in order to show how bad a group is."

Which word in that sentence you quoted is the word "say" or "said?" Can you bold it for me?

"in order to show." What did you mean, if not that I was saying that the group is bad?

What did you mean, if not that I was saying that the group is bad?

That you had violated the rule against weakmanning.

Right. By means of ostensibly saying that the group was bad, right? Jesus, what is the point of claiming you didn't say what you said? It doesn’t undermine your broader point, which is that you don’t want people opining about the motives of members. That rule holds whether one thinks that the motive says something about the moral status of the person, the moral status of the motive, neither, or both.

Right. By means of ostensibly saying that the group was bad, right? Jesus, what is the point of claiming you didn't say what you said?

You didn't--as you were for some reason anxious to point out--say that anyone was bad. Remember? This is you:

I didn’t say anyone is "bad."

That's true! And it is true in very much the same spirit in which I didn't say that you said it.

It doesn’t undermine your broader point, which is that you don’t want people opining about the motives of members.

No. What I don't want you doing is weakmanning any groups, but especially not this one.

And it is true in very much the same spirit in which I didn't say that you said it.

Never mind. I guess you just want to play childish games.

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