site banner
PaperclipPerfector  11mo ago (text post)   27236 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 11, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

What is wrong with that? All else being equal, a teacher who is seen by students as an individual human being, rather than as a bureaucrat, will likely be more effective on many dimensions.

Because your teacher is not your pal or your buddy, and why should you have to pretend to be interested in their skiing trips or collection of Funkopops? They are there to teach you, you are there to learn (we hope) and you don't have to know all about their home and personal life outside of school to do that.

Regarding them as a human being is no harm, but I think it's just as likely students will think that stuff is lame or boring, or that the teacher is trying to impose it on them, as it is to make them go "Wow Mx. Futterperson is a real genuine human just like me, not a robot!"

If the classroom is all decked out like Mx. Futterperson's living room, then the teacher has no right to be surprised when the kids treat it like a living room in their home, and play on their phones/get up and walk around/talk to each other/don't pay attention.

why should you have to pretend to be interested in their skiing trips or collection of Funkopops?

Who said anything about anyone having to pretend to be interested?

I think it's just as likely students will think that stuff is lame

Which is of course the default attitude of students towards teachers. which is absolutely fine. It isn't about trying to prove to the students that the teacher is "cool." It is trying to show that he is not a mere functionary.

then the teacher has no right to be surprised when the kids treat it like a living room in their home, and play on their phones/get up and walk around/talk to each other/don't pay attention.

  1. There is a big difference between having some personal items and "being decked out like a living room."
  2. And you have evidence that that is the case? Because in my experience, the opposite it true.

Who said anything about anyone having to pretend to be interested?

You think the average 14-15 year old really would be interested in boring old Teacher's holiday on the slopes? Even if they are themselves interested in the topic?

I could, at a stretch, imagine 12 year olds listening to Mx. Futterperson telling them all about their ski trip, or maybe 18 year olds when they're old enough to go on ski trips of their own, but in the interval?

Well, perhaps you know more Cool Teachers or well-behaved kids than I do! 😁

Again, who said anything about students being interested? Or about the teachers telling stories of their ski trip? We are talking only about classrooom decorations.

And, we also are not talking about "cool teachers."

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats