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Culture War Roundup for the week of November 27, 2023

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I think the only mechanism that will produce the right mixture is free association of individuals in a free society.

And this belief comes from your observation of "free individuals" in a "free society"? If so, could you name which individuals and what society you have in mind, as an example of what these terms look like in practice?

Similarly, I think free association of individuals in a free society will tend to promote good cultural values and demote bad ones, since people are materially rewarded for adopting the good values and discarding the bad ones. People respond to incentives.

It is good to know that the universe has ordained that all incentives must be net-positive, otherwise one could be forgiven for worrying that bad incentives might result from freely-made individual and communal choices, and then perpetuate themselves indefinitely. Fortunately you have found a free society with free association, where no such incentives have arisen; if you had not, the many observations that contradict your theory might be mistaken for a refutation.

The alternative is some sort of top-down system where a person in power decides which cultural values are good and which are bad.

Yes, I've observed many systems that are a reasonably close match to this description. In fact, every system I've ever heard of has been pretty close to this description, but I am certainly not omniscient. What you are describing is a specific, successful, non-hierarchical society with a long history of stability and prosperity, correct?

Just as this structure tends to fail badly when applied to economics and ideas, it also fails badly when applied to culture.

If we wish to say that such systems "fail badly", one ought to demonstrate what "succeeds" looks like with concrete, large-scale examples.

I think a free and open society will quickly destroy bad ideas like those, so I am not particularly worried about my culture mixing with them.

If such ideas were not destroyed but instead achieved dominance even within a free and open society, such that they then destroyed the freedom and openness and cemented themselves in long-term control, what would you say should be done?

Or to put it another way, is your love for freedom and openness a means, or an end? If freedom and openness could be demonstrated to enable evil, would you still support them, or would you accept that some level of restriction was necessary?

These practices can only persist if they are being propped up by a central power structure.

This statement implies that central power structures are optional. If they are not, if centralized power and hierarchy are in fact an inevitable consequence of human nature, wouldn't that imply that such ideas are in fact persistant, and likely to remain so?

And this belief comes from your observation of "free individuals" in a "free society"? If so, could you name which individuals and what society you have in mind, as an example of what these terms look like in practice?

This is a matter of degree. The US is freer than North Korea or China. And within the US, some places are clearly freer than others.

Characteristics of a free society include:

  1. The ability to privately own guns and other weapons sufficient to enable the violent overthrow of a tyrannical government;

  2. Free speech and free association;

  3. All adult humans are equal before the law and are entitled to due process and the presumption of criminal innocence;

  4. The right to engage in consensual transactions and to dispose of one's property as one chooses without permission;

  5. The right to bind oneself with enforceable contracts.

It is good to know that the universe has ordained that all incentives must be net-positive

Given a choice between a good thing and a bad (or less good) thing, a person with full information who is able to freely choose between them will prefer to choose the good thing. This is the definition of "good" I am operating under.

In fact, every system I've ever heard of has been pretty close to this description, but I am certainly not omniscient.

There are systems where a single central authority has a massive amount of power to make cultural decisions (e.g. North Korea, Spain in the 1500s, Iran), and there are systems where cultural authority is more distributed and less centrally powerful, e.g., the US. I would prefer even less centralized cultural power than currently exists in the US, but again it is a matter of degree.

If we wish to say that such systems "fail badly", one ought to demonstrate what "succeeds" looks like with concrete, large-scale examples.

Centrally planned economies like Soviet Russia and North Korea produce little wealth and generally cause massive amounts of starvation. They also tend to produce untrue ideas at a high rate, such as Lysenkoism. Decentralized economies like the US produce comparatively more wealth, less starvation, and more empirically correct ideas. It is a matter of degree, but the degree of difference is extremely large.

Or to put it another way, is your love for freedom and openness a means, or an end? If freedom and openness could be demonstrated to enable evil, would you still support them, or would you accept that some level of restriction was necessary?

It is a means. If you demonstrated that freedom and openness have a higher likelihood of causing bad outcomes as compared with another specific alternative system, I would change my view. However, I consider the empirical evidence in favor of freedom to be overwhelming, so I would require a considerable amount of evidence in the other direction.

This statement implies that central power structures are optional.

The degree to which power is centralized, and the kinds of power that such central structures have, clearly vary in different times and places. I don't think it's possible to eliminate central power, but I think it is possible to considerably reduce the influence of central power and to place checks on the exercise of such power (e.g. via the private ownership of the means of war).