This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I think you’re arguing a little past Tracing’s point. I think he’d agree that there were extensive, deliberate bad faith efforts to destroy conservative organizations, to make their advocacy harder, to use every trick in the book against them, like lobbying law firms to try to pull the smartest lawyers off 2nd Amendment cases.
But consider that case in more detail. Why is it that the partners who run one of America’s most elite law firms offered star lawyers who had just won in front of the Supreme Court the choice between dropping their clients and being fired? Well, you say, because countless Fortune 500 corporate law clients who spend a lot of money with them threatened not to hire the firm if they didn’t do so. This is likely. But why did they fold?
Why did even Elon Musk fold, as seen by his ridiculous apology tour this week after he annoyed advertisers too much (the tour has gone wrong, we might say, but it was an attempt)? Why did he bend the knee? Because ultimately he cares more about money than about politics.
Yeah, yeah, you say, the center-left isn’t willing to die for their beliefs either. But they are willing to accept a lifetime of earning a mediocre living for them. That’s Tracing’s point. Kirkland’s most senior partners (who presumably were okay with the firm representing the NRA until the backlash, so weren’t strongly ideological on those lines) folded when their huge compensation was put on the line (even though most, given senior partner pay, would likely already be more than rich enough to retire comfortably). That’s why they bent the knee.
Ultimately, the option is a Morton's Fork between the dead and the forsworn. "Why" they bent the knee at that level isn't particularly interesting: Clement as the office and officer of one of the most prestigious BigLaw firms would be gone either way.
((Indeed, Clement did take the option of earning a
mediocrenot gold-plated living.))But that's not very interesting; the number of political groups who can't be bought at any price is pretty low, and they're not exactly the most effective or most palatable ones. Step back one point to see why these groups could bring this credible and this serious of a threat, and you notice that it's something far broader and longer-lasting driving things.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link